to_hobbes

Yeah I know, it is kind of silly to make up your own meanings to words.

To be sure, when talking to Christians, I usually say "Free will doesn't exist". But it is shorter than saying "the decision making process in our mind". So when I talk with other agnostics, I am usually careful to first define what I mean by "free will", before saying I "believe in it".

The first time I posted on this thread (here) I said the exact same thing. First I defined free will as the decision making process, then I said I believe in it.

Maybe my explanations are a bit confusing. But I don't know how to make my ideas any more clear.

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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

Og

What exactly is "free" about the "will" component of the decision making process?

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The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

to_hobbes

That's exactly my point: it is NOT "free", it is completely deterministic. "Free will" is just a fancy name for it.

Thats what I meant when I said in this post that free will is just a feel-good term for our decision making process.

And then I confused Romansh by using my definition of "free will" without clarifying my definition. But I think if you are going to talk about it at all, you need to understand that it is really not free. If that is understood, then I believe in "free will".

But how else could "free will" be defined? Is it some magical hand or a part of your soul that causes you to make decisions without any regard for what is happening in your mind? If that's what you mean, then I definitely don't believe in free will. Any definition of "free will" that doesn't make it deterministic and not-free simply doesn't make any sense.

Like I was saying in this post, the only way you can have any discussion of "free will" is to re-define it as not free.

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(By the way, it's all in your head.)

Nick Treklis

Ultimately everything we do is determined by infinite causal webs stretching back endlessly in to time, and since they are infinite it is entirely impossible to know exactly what will happen next. So even though we ultimately don't have free will, it in no way nullifies taking personal responsibility for one's actions. This excerpt of the ancient greek philosopher Diogenes comes to mind: ""It's my fate to steal," pleaded the man who had been caught red-handed by Diogenes.

"Then it is also your fate to be beaten," said Diogenes, hitting him across the head with his staff.

Og

It just seems confusing to me to use the term at all. Why redefine it? The notion of free will is intimately tied into the notion of an authoritative god that is separate from you and me (i.e. western religion). If we are something separate from God then the church structure can control our behavior by talking about punishments for actions.

Free will is the notion that your actions originate entirely from you and don't correlate with outside influences on some basic level. This is clearly false.

I don't see how it's at all useful to use Free will in a sentence when you don't mean anything that is "free" in this concept. EVERYTHING is dependent in its origination. Every action and object is dependently arising from all other thing.

Nothing is free. All is an expression of everything else and vice versa.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Nash Khatri

I think the strict laws of physics apply to the post bang (time/space) universe, but not "beyond" that. That is, Science applies only in the time/space bound universe, not "beyond" that. I maintain that there is "lack-of-time-and space" (or LTS) both beyond and within our universe. Check out the excerpts on my book website www.thinkingisauthorized.com and you'll get a better feel about what I'm saying.

Hmm, what do you mean "if you were born in Congo" - I was born on the other side of the coast in Zanzibar - ha!

I maintain that the future is undetermined (our fate is not pre-determined) - thanks to LTS and whatever can be perhaps be associated with it, like life-matter (soul, spirit, mind, etc). I associate free will with all living beings (in the sense that all living beings are inherently unpredictable under normal circumstances). I can't see how it was predetermined that I will post this message .... and that some of you will or will not respond to it.

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When it comes to notions like nature, life, God (or god), soul, death, afterlife, and future, we are all at the same knowledge level. Regardless, when you have an open mind, everyone will try to fill it up for you. Good thing, Thinking Is Authorized!

Muad'dib

All excellent ideas sirs. I would argue that free will is part of the programming. Kind of like the movie Tron. By that I mean perhaps we are just user created programs doing what we think we are supposed to be doing when, in actuality that's the way it is for the users as well. What I mean to say is given that the universe is a system and all things are part of that system even "conscious" choices and their outcomes are the result of some kind of design. In short it is the "everything happens for a reason" mentality just on a higher scale.

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romansh

Hi BEn
I have not seen Tron ... ignoring that I would more or less agree with your above statement, though I would replace the words "design" and "reason" with the word "cause"

all the best and welcome

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xris

i am not a number im a free man.Nothing is written.

Og

Lack of free will as an individual doesn't necessarily imply determinism.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are