romansh

Goodmorning hobbes
A little bit of thought as I was drifting off last night.

The concepts that people seem to debate frequently on this forum.... tentatively I called primary concepts... you seem to believe in an 'absolute', I took the liberty with purpose.

Primary Concepts
truth, morality, good, evil, purpose

Secondary Concepts ... (such as)
home, bravery, fear, enjoyment, intelligence, humour, vulnerability, passion, patience, sensitivity, love, hate....

Tertiary Concepts
things, house, mammals, science, dictionary (and most of its contents)

The primary concepts seem to fall into a "beliefs", the secondaries into feelings, and the tertiaries into things and possibly physical actions.

I know this requires more thought.

My question is where would you draw the line in terms of the existence of absolutes. I ask because our primary concepts are likely a product of our secondary concepts and the secondary concepts are definitely a product of the tertiary concepts.

I don't particularly believe the concept of good versus evil is particularly useful and in fact is likely damaging to society.

regarding which question
Are we moving close to the truth or is it like a deep dive into a mandelbrot set?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ATWrMlIKRBk

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

marmalade

(1) Primary and Secondary Concepts are abstract.
This would correlate to MBTI Intuition(N).

(a) Primary Concepts are abstract principles.
This would correlate to MBTI Intuition-Thinking(NT).

(b) Secondary Concepts are abstract values.
This would correlate to MBTI Intuitoin-Feeling(NF).

(2) Tertiary Concepts are concrete.
This would correlate to MBTI Sensation(S).

* Tertiary Concepts(as presented) aren't differentiated between Thinking(T) and Feeling(F).

Most people interested in discussion forums are Inuitives. Many interested in forums where debate occurs are often Intuition-Thinking types. And agnostics would tend to be Perceivers(P) because they'd rather keep their ideas open-ended in relation to others. NPs love to consider possibilities and hate coming to final conclusions. Also, they'd prefer to think and discuss rather than take action.

You say that Tertiary Concepts inform Secondary Concepts which then inform Primary Concepts. This idea makes me think of an INTP viewpoint. INTPs are Introverted Thinking(Ti) dominant/preference. But its there Extraverted Intuition(Ne) that seeks out data for the Ti to base conclusions upon.

Also, NTs generally don't like ideas such as good and evil because its a value judgment which is the domain of Feeling. INTPs in particular have issues with value judgments. Extroverted Feeling(Fe) is their inferior function and so they're highly sensitive about conforming to social values. Furthermore, Introverted Feeling(Fi) is a shadow function that utterly opposes their dominant.

By the way, I'm not typing you. I'm just typing this perspective.

romansh

yeah .... like you did not know I am an INTP .....

though I did read being diagnosed as a particular type was no excuse for behaving in any partilar fashion.

just feel sorry for the Js .... they don't seem to get a look in.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

NotConvinced

I believe Right and Wrong are indeed perceptions which help us value our decisions. I think decisions aren't Right or Wrong based on the decision itself, but are Right or Wrong based on the result of the decision. We punish people for killing because we don't want people to get killed, ultimately it's our own personal fear of death.

I think the survival instinct alone causes us to punish killers, how does right or wrong play a role at all in that?

There have been animal predators that kill without need or reason, and animals that don't live in packs or herds. I think the concepts of right and wrong and why beings have them are relative to life in general. Those beings that can learn to manipulate as many consequences to their benefit as they can, indeed try to do so. I don't believe it's because of universal rule.

It's indeed much like establishing absolute truth, you're saying that Universal Rules exist. How do you know they do? Where did they come from? Why do they exist?

Truly establishing an absolute just seems impossible, whether it's truth or law.

nkrummy

I don't think moral relativism covers everything. Don't you think that even objectively we can view some things as so inhumane or destructive that we can and should agree that they are wrong, because we have a duty to so so?
For example, can't all rational people agree that what Ted Bundy did was wrong?

romansh

No

is the short answer

The slightly longer answer from a societal indoctrination point of view is yes. You and I are products of our environment. From an everyday practical point of view I agree with you, Bush is wrong, global warming is bad, killing (murder) is wrong. Where did I get these concepts, my parents, the Bible, advertizing.... need I go on.

good and evil, right and wrong from an absolute moral point of view are manmade and therefore not eternal.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

I agree more or less, but it i spossible that a specific moral guideline that does adhere to an objective morality 'handed down' by God?

romansh

Hi V .... is it possible?
I don't believe in gods that hand down moral guidelines.
We have to work those (morals) for ourselves.

Which god were you thinking of?

(I'm sorry I should have said I believe gods that hand down morals don't exist)....

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

marmalade

Ha ha! Romansh believes in gods without hands...

That is so silly. Everyone knows the gods have at least 4 hands.

Vinterland

No God in particular. Thanks, that clears it up for me.