davus224

Hello, all...

i actually just joined and am making my first post, so go easy on me. I read the threads pertaining to meaning and purpose in life, and it got me thinking of a discussion i had with a freind a while back. Human beings created language. It is our most advanced communication technique and yet...we are unable to communicate anything that is not also created by humans. Everything we actually KNOW is that which we are physically or emotionally feeling at one given moment. We may say that we have a headache, but that does not communicate what our head actually feels like. It gives the listener a chance to have a relative experience based on that which he/she understands to be a headache...

if this is valid, are feelings, emotional and physical, the only meaningful things in life? because they are the only things that we know exist outside of human labels?

The next step would be to say that the entity in life with the most meaning is pain...or joy...the extremes of the human sensory experience. The existence of God, (a human created concept) and the meaning of words are arbitrary if we accept the fact that they were created by humans as a way to understand the world...in which case...sensory perception is all that matters. Talk about living in the moment...yikes.

Ok..that was terribly jumbled, but i'd love some help with this. Thanks a lot!

-davus

Gettin' In Tune

Hi davus and welcome aboard. Nice first post, even though I am not 100% sure of what you are asking. Don't worry, sometimes others are not always 100% confident in what I am saying.

I have to investigate this further, but I think that experience transcends and includes sensory observation, emotions, and the physical.

The spectrum of conscious experience (or reason) goes from sensation, to perception, to images, to symbols, to concepts, to rules, and to meta-rules, among others.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

davus224

Thanks so much for the relpy! Ans sorry i was unclear

Anywho...you're right that sensation has to be the beginning of experience. My question i suppose: Is sensation the purest "human" entity...and if it is, how can humans ever find truth by qualifying them with words, and concepts that are human created in the first place? Does that make more sense? Probably not. Baah. As Samuel Beckett said, "Words, Words."

Gettin' In Tune

No worries. When you begin investigating something that you are unfamiliar with, it is natural that you may not have a clear understanding of it.

I would say that sensation is the purest form of experience. I am not sure that I believe in innate knowledge. If I did, then I would consider innate knowledge as a potential candidate for the purest human entity.

Are you saying that truth is without definition? I think one of the beauties of being human is conveying thought, emotions, symbols, and metaphors, and the meta-physics. Didn't these pure human sensation give birth to language? Doesn't language lead to other forms of pure sensation. Without language, I would be severely handicapped in exploring myself and the world around me.

I know that when I am in nature, sometimes I have feelings of beauty and wonder. When I try to confine that feeling with a definition, I often lose that feeling. Does that make any sense?

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

davus224

Yes! It makes perfect sense and i completely agree with you. I suppose what im getting at has more to do with the human dependency on language as being inhibiting (in the search for truth that is). There are of course exceptions. Finnigan's Wake by James Joyce is a perfect example. A non-linear dream world created with words...incredible. But for normal human beings...is language more of a detriment when looking for truth? I agree that it is an important tool for communication and assimilating perceptions. But I feel like human beings define themselves by language...which you said before, is incapable of accurately describing feelings, emotions, raw perceptions...all that is at the base of true experience. haha, I feel as though i am making less and less sense...but maybe thats the point im trying to make. Thanks again for your replies. You are quite insightful :-)

Gettin' In Tune

Why is it that I always get a nervous sensation when someone completely agrees with me?

I would not say that language inhibits our search of the truth, but is rather a necessary tool. How are you defining this truth?

I am not sure that I said that language is incapable describing feelings, emotions, raw perception. When someone says "I have a headache" you can measure the severity by examining their body language. How else would we describe a "headache" without language? As a person viewing someone with a headache, I might not know exactly how it effects them, but by using language I have a clearer and more accurate description of their pain than I would otherwise without the use of language.

When I previously described an inexplicable emotion that I sometimes feel in nature or between my fellow man, you somehow Knew what I was talking about.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

davus224

I am all kinds of mixed up lol...I think that language is a necessary tool for communication...but i do feel things are lost in translation. I feel i dont really know what im saying anymore though...

Astreja

It may help to see language as an approximation of the communication we wish to have.

Even if two individuals were raised in the same environment, there will be subtle differences on the non-verbal side of their interactions. The same words and gestures may evoke radically different emotional reactions and memories.

To further confuse the issue, as one person speaks to another there are two separate internal monologues going on behind the scene. Picture this: The speaker is trying to make a convincing case for a pet cause, and must decide which argument to use next. He observes the expressions on the listener's face and steers the conversation accordingly. Meanwhile, the listener is analyzing the data, saying nothing but considering the pros and cons of the argument (or getting bored and wondering what to have for lunch).

And, even if these two individuals were telepathic and could share their perceptions fully and in realtime, they would communicate only their own knowledge and perspectives... Which may or may not be true. But it's a start.

niranjan

Yeah, the Indian enlightened masters, have stated that the mind can become a victim of itself , and lost in the habit of words and articulating everything.

I believe, that for knowing the truth, you should go beyond words, and go beyond the mind itself and all its chaotic thoughts and desires, to the dimension of intuition and pure consciousness, which gives a better grasp of the truth, without any errors.

Perhaps you must have heard of the 'no-mind ' of Zen. The no-mind is based on going beyond the mind , thoughts , words for finding the truth, which is inherent in yourself.



Buddha on the superconscious state

Then said Mahamati: Pray tell us, Blessed One, what is the nature of Self-realization by reason of which we shall be able to attain Transcendental Intelligence?

The Blessed One replied: Transcendental Intelligence rises when the intellectual-mind reaches its limit and, if things are to be realized in their true and essence nature, its processes of mentation, which are based on particularized ideas, discriminations and judgments, must be transcended by an appeal to some higher faculty of cognition, if there be such a higher faculty. There is such a faculty in the intuitive-mind (Manas), which as we have seen is the link between the intellectual-mind and Universal Mind. While it is not an individualized organ like the intellectual-mind, it has that which is much better direct dependence upon Universal Mind. While intuition, does not give information that can be analyzed and discriminated, it gives that which is far superior, self-realization through identification.

quote(s) : Lankavatara Sutra, Buddhism, Mahayana


Intuition comes very close to clairvoyance; it appears to be the extrasensory perception of reality.

--- Alexis Carrel

__________________
You yourself are your only friend. You yourself are your only enemy.

---Krishna ( Bhagavad Gita )


“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

---Buddha


The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason.

---Thomas Paine