redcliff

First of all, how do you know? polygamy certainly exists in nature, do lions CHOOSE it? so does incest. They have a genetic base. sorry.
let me understand, so people CHOOSE to fall in love with their sibling or multiple partners, but if it is someONE of the same sex then it's not. o.k. why? does the part of the brain that falls in love with a sister has 'free will' but the part that falls in love with someONE of the same sex is control by genetics? how do you know?

Agreed, but incest and polygamy are also taboos, why would you CHOOSE that?

in a more general way: There is a hint of 'the naturalistic fallacy' in your arguments - if it's natural then it's fine and if it's artificial it's not. that is just wrong. people who use that argument immediately also define everything they like as natural or genetic and everything they dislike as a choice - so homosexuality is mostly genetic (agreed) but gender differences are all nurture caused (nonsense).

For example, most experts believe that pedophilia is not a choice (now, why would someone choose THAT??) does that make it good? cancer is natural, airplanes are not. so what?
the fact the homosexuality is (mostly) genetic doesn't make it automatically good or bad. acceptable or unacceptable.


Hardly.

MartheGod

How do I know? I just said that Scientists and Psychologists said that homosexuality is genetic. Did you miss that or what? I didn't just pull it out of my butt. You have to be VERY, VERY careful comparing animals to humans. Polygamy exists in animals because they have been programmed to reproduce enough so that their species can survive. And remember, some animals are monogamous. Also, in many animal groups, incest is taboo like it is with humans. Also, if you are going to speak about animals, don't forget that some (The lions you love to talk about) kill off the younger males of their species so they cannot mate with the females. So, again, be VERY careful when bringing animals into the mix with humans. Infanticide is genetic in the animal kingdom, but it isn't genetic with humans. Also, you appear to be getting genetic confused with nature. Don't get them confused. Oh, and another thing I just thought about. Humans aren't preprogrammed to fall in love with their relatives or be in polygamous relationships. Gay people ARE preprogrammed to be attracted to the same sex. Oooooh. Gotcha.

Sigh. Please don't skim over my comments. I SAID that people don't choose whom they fall in love with. However, as I said, homosexuality is a genetic thing and polygamy and incest are not (And don't bring up the stuff about animals again, because this is only about humans, NOT animals. You can have a field day if you bring in the animal "can of worms"). I guess I can't really argue why they don't allow incestuous or polygamous couples to marry. I guess when we let gays marry, they might be able to have their turn.

Heh. I didn't think about that. I was just using that argument to show why people wouldn't choose to be gay.

Again, you did not read all my comments or you wouldn't be accusing me of "naturalistic fallacy". I stated in my last post that I didn't mind if incestuous couples or polygamous couples got married. Which means that I don't dislike incest or polygamy. I merely stated that homosexuality is genetic and incest and polygamy are not because it's TRUE, not because I'm biased and I'm just making s**t up to fit what I want. You are putting words in my mouth, redcliff.

I believe that pedophilia is not a choice (I really don't have enough information to comment on pedophilia, either...) either and I never said that just because something is not a choice it is good...or even bad actually. Redcliff, you need to quit pinning things on me, especially when I have not said certain things.

I was merely trying to argue why gay marriage should exist. I was not trying to put down incestuous or polygamous relationships. I don't really think that polygamy or incest marriage would come after gay marriage if they finally allowed it b/c I don't think there is a large enough group lobbying for incest and/or polygamy marriages. There is a large group including gays, bis, trans, and straights lobbying for gay marriage, so that's why gay marriage might happen. Usually when there is a large group of people lobbying for something, the government gives in. And as you said, the flood gates could open. The pedophilic community could also lobby for marriage rights, too. Anything could happen, really. However, since scientists and psychologists say being gay is genetic and is okay, there might be a higher chance that gay people get married.

Oh yeah. Again, people probably used the arguments about incestuous couples, polygamous couples, bestiality couples possibly getting married b/c they didn't want interracial couples to get married. Think about that. Oh, and I was looking at one of your posts and you said that the marriage thing says "man and woman." While this could work for incestuous couples, it couldn't work for polygamous couples. ^_~

I hardly destroyed your argument? Dude, I OWNED your argument. THAT'S why you had to bring in the animal kingdom (Humans and animals are similar, but not THAT similar) and accuse me of "naturalistic fallacy" when I obviously said that I supported incest/polygamy marriages even though they aren't genetic.

Can we just stop arguing about this? I'm for gay marriage, are you or are you not?

Geshtinnanna

Not really stating my opinion yet. But I would like to point out there is genetics and there is behavior. I agree homosexuality is genetics. I also believe acting out those feelings is behavior. I was in love with a woman and lived with her for 7 years. I am not, however a lesbian. I realize now it was a wrong choice I made based on something that did not involve my love of homosexuality. It involved my childhood fears of men at the time. I think people can be born gay. And some people simply choose to act out homosexual behavior. Some dabble and some are completely and utterly afraid and very against it. So much against it that they do it in secret etc. I am genetically prone do Diabetes. My behavior of eating habits has led to me now being Diabetic. I ramble. Got to go eat my din din

__________________

Og

You are correct. I was being dumb, my bad. The gov't should have nothing to do with regulating marriage. The reasons for gay marriage can be applied to polygamy and to incest. There is no reason that any of these should be disallowed.

The definition of marriage is something that the state should have no part in at all.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Fire Legion

Here is all that there's worth saying concerning gay marriage.

Homosexuality is fine so long as it isn't inflicted upon others involuntarily. For those bible literalists who quote "man shalt not lie with man, woman shalt not lie with woman" (sorry for inaccuracies ) I say this. Firstly, as homosexuality is not a choice (if you don't believe it try to make yourself gay)and is genetic, it would mean that God intended for that person to be that way, and infact loves them for being that way.

As for marriage, surely one love is equally as great as another. All the major religions state that love is paramount, and so therefore it doesn't matter what form it takes. And anyway. Does gay marriage hurt anyone? No. Is it cruel or evil? No.

Crystal17

I have to say, the discussion has been very interesting. I also agree that gays should have the right to marry. As a straight mom, I whole heartedly support the gay's rights. The fact that they can't just get pregnant by accident, and make very clear and conscious decisions to have or not to have children puts them in the lead as some of the best parents around.

Just hang out at Walmart for a while and watch all the straight parents who can't handle having children abuse them. That is what turns my stomach. I'm not saying that gays can't be abusive, but they generally have children at an older age, when they are more prepared to handle everything that parenting brings. Parents making serious decisions instead of accidentally "forgetting" the condum is good for community.

Professional Widow

Bananas? HAHA! Seriously though, my best friends are almost all gay. I have always been drawn to gay men (yes, just call me a "fruit fly"!) all of my life. I think it's the need for platonic love from a male. I've never really gotten along with women, but gay men (most of the time) will give you a masculine view with a feminine edge! It's awesome. I think every adult should be able to get married to whomever they wish.

__________________
Heresy is only another word for freedom of thought.
~Graham Greene

redcliff

MartheGod :

Not really, but I'm too busy today. I'll rip you a new one next week.

Professional Widow

Ha ha! That attitude is hilarious. Kinda like "meh, I'll deal with you later." You got better things to do!

__________________
Heresy is only another word for freedom of thought.
~Graham Greene

redcliff

To MartheGod:

I asked you how do you know that INCEST and POLYGAMY are choices. I quoted you saying that they are CHOICES and asked you how did you know.
if you had read ahead you could have seen that I had agreed that homosexuality is mostly genetic.
Or did you miss that or what? or to quote you:

In your reply, you just DECLARE them to be a choice, which doesn't make it so

You are obviously fixated on the fact that people compare gay sex or interracial sex to beastiality. well, I didn't do so. also this comparison is not true since gays are people, and there are no inferior races. if there were then this argument would have had some merit - if someone had sex with a Neanderthal (if they existed today) for instance. also sex with mentally retarded people is frowned upon not without merit.

However, he who owns my arguments, examples from nature are used everyday by scientists in order to study humans.
Humans are descendants from animals, and there is a lot to be said about us by studying them: medical advancement is done by studying animals, many human drugs were tested on animals, researches study bonobo monkeys and draw conclusions about humans etc. etc. We are animals, who share many similar genes with them,, therefore it is not meritless to infer from them to us. peple like Dawkins or Gould use(d) those kinds of examples all the time. do you deny that such an enterprise has merit? are humans too special? sounds like a tinge of creationism to me.

You are obviously confusing the first kind of comparison with the second legitimate comparison so don't put words in MY mouth.

Actually, it's funny you mention it, since it is GAY people who always point out that homosexuality exists in nature and therefore it is genetic. so are you saying they are wrong in doing so? if you do you've just taken away one of their strongest points, if you don't then I am also allowed to use it.
Talk about 'shooting yourself in the foot'

No. YOU have to carefully read what people say, and then carefully think about it before you rush to respond.

really? how do you know that? actually it has some genetic base. ever heard of the evil stepmother/stepfather? it's not a myth.


Ever heard of the word context? The word nature has many meanings, one of them is genetic.
definition of nature

...
...
Since you only gave me the genetic argument, and then said that
'why it should exist'. What else should I have thought?

If the genetic argument is not valid, then your ENTIRE response that was meant (was it?) to supply me an argument that might explain why should we allow gay marriages and not the others (since that was my initial claim) was pointless. If now you admit it's not (if you don't then it is the naturalistic fallacy). Why didn't you just say: "You are right, there is no such argument" instead of wasting everybody's time???

It's getting too long so maybe I'll 'disown' you some more later.

BTW
If they think it will bring them happiness (marriage as a cause for happiness... boy, are they in for a surprise) so be it.