Gay Marriage - Page 2

DizzyDee · 11-08-2006, 07:08 PM

Yeah, I read the paper today and it looks like 5 states are banning gay marriage - along with the 20 who have previously banned it. Religious beliefs seem to be affecting secular life all across America - so much for separation of church and state.

Gringo · 11-11-2006, 06:15 PM

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Originally Posted by DizzyDee

Yeah, I read the paper today and it looks like 5 states are banning gay marriage - along with the 20 who have previously banned it. Religious beliefs seem to be affecting secular life all across America - so much for separation of church and state.

What about Civil Unions?

DizzyDee · 11-11-2006, 06:42 PM

I'm not sure - I'm in Canada. Quite a bit of the States news makes it here but I don't pay attention to all of it.

Ronin · 11-12-2006, 07:27 AM

I don't know about the other states, but the Virginia amendment specificaly precludes the granting of civil unions, domestic partnerships, or any other relationship that seeks to simulate the rights and obligations of marriage, in addition to defining marriage as a union between one man and one woman. That actualy means that straights can't get a civil union or domestic partnership either, but, of course, they can get "married" and gays can't.

Faydwyn · 11-18-2006, 05:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Ronin

(interestingly, atheists and agnostics have the lowest divorce rate).

Could you cite your source(s) for that information? I’d like to read them.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

This is indeed a dark day for tolerance and social justice

True, but “we” don’t exactly have a good track record in regards to those things. I hope people wake up sooner then with past issues.

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Originally Posted by DizzyDee

Religious beliefs seem to be affecting secular life all across America - so much for separation of church and state.

Same-sex marriage is legal in Canada right? How controversial is it? How entangled is religion and government there?

Ronin · 11-18-2006, 02:02 PM

Here's one: Population Statistics of Atheists, Non-Believers and Religions. I would have liked to have found a source that wasn't a pro-atheist site, but for some strange reason no one but atheists want to advertise the fact that atheist divorce rates are lower than those for Christians. Can't imagine why

. But this particular page has a nice table giving the exact stats, which they say are from a survey by the associated press. Maybe someone more computer savvy than I could find the original survey, assuming the AP published it.

Anyone care to speculate as to the cause of this disparity? I know from personal experience that fundamentalists tend to marry earlier so that's probably a factor. As far as why they marry earlier (again, just my own personal observations of Pentacostals), I think its partly b/c they're not allowed any sexual outlet outside of marriage, so they marry as soon as they can, and partly b/c the whole culture tends to be suspicious of a girl who has any plans for her life other than raising a family. They don't explicitly beleive that a woman can't work, or that her only purpose is to have babies, but they do beleive that women should submit to their husbands (and to a lesser extent, men in general), so its as if they see a woman making anything but marriage the primary goal of her life as threatening b/c she's not "subject" to a man (I once confided in the minister's wife that, while part of me wanted the closeness and intimacy of marriage, part of me l didn't want to give up the independance of singlehood. That night at church the pastor digressed form his sermon briefly to explicitly address the youth [we all sat together in the front row] to tell us that "God wants us to marry." I found this sort of ironic, since Jesus actualy encourages celebacy in the gospels.) Someone on another atheist forum I once visited theorized that, since Christians see marriage as a spiritual thing, they expect God to help them stay together and so aren't as realistic as someone who simply sees marriage as a secular partnership. I've observed some of this as well: young Pentacostals tend to be naive about relationships. THe church discourages casual dating b/c its seen as a temptation to sin, so many Pentacostals end up marrying the first or second guy they go out with.

Toonia · 11-24-2006, 11:18 PM

I feel very strongly about separation of church and state. If some denomination decides to deny gay marriage, that should be within their freedom, but the state should absolutely not deny gay marriage. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Isn't that the answer to this question right there?

**George** · 11-24-2006, 11:41 PM

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Originally Posted by Toonia

I feel very strongly about separation of church and state. If some denomination decides to deny gay marriage, that should be within their freedom, but the state should absolutely not deny gay marriage. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Isn't that the answer to this question right there?

Exactly. Very good point. It doesn't say "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness IF you have christian moral beliefs".

DizzyDee · 11-26-2006, 11:20 AM

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Same-sex marriage is legal in Canada right? How controversial is it? How entangled is religion and government there?

There was quite a fight from the religious right to stop same sex marriage. In fact, even the liberal government, in the late 90's passed legislation that defined marriage as being between one man and one woman, however, the supreme court striked it down when it was challenged in court as being against the charter of rights and freedoms - that was in 2001. Since then different provinces, following the supreme court ruling started legalizing same sex marriage since the legal precedent had been set and finally in 2003 the federal goverment passed a bill granting the right to same sex marriage across Canada. Since then, the only time I see controversy is when there is an election, but I think most canadians see it as a dead issue. When the conservatives formed the present government they promised to re-open the debate to appease their religious right voters, but they've been stalling and recent polls indicate that most canadians are against re-opening a done deal and by doing so putting into question the status of now married same sex couples - of which I believe there have been around 10,000 since 2003. Religion doesn't factor into politics too much here - some religious people try, but they aren't very successful a lot of the time.

Vfr · 11-30-2006, 06:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Ronin

Hey guys, I wasn't sure where to put this, but this seemed like a good place. So I was walking home from class through grounds (what you poor non-UVA alumnis would call "campus"

) and I noticed a crowd of people arguing. As I drew closer, I could see a man holding a huge sign saying "God" near the top and "there is a hell" near the bottom. As I got yet closer I could see that in between was some smaller print talking about how homosexuality was a sin. THe man was loudly preaching and various students were arguing with him - it was a circus. THe provecation for all this? A small table, a few feet away from the furor, covered with a rainbow tablecloth and manned by a couple of students handing out flyers asking students to "vote no in November." I stopped to ask them (there was hardly anyone around the table) what the excitement was about and found out that Virginia's got a referendum vote coming up on whether or not to alter our state constitution so as to "ban civil unions, domestic partnerships, and gay marriage." That is, not only would they not allow homosexuals to marry, but they won't allow them (or anyone else) to obtain a civil union that would give them the same basic rights as married couples (i.e., to visit their partner in the hospital, claim their kids on tax forms, etc.)

You know, I'm not gay, and I don't have any gay friends, so usualy I don't take too much interest in this sort of thing, but this just makes me angry.
I always thought that the problem was that people got too hung up over the word "marriage," which seems to me to be a religious sacrament that the government can't really grant to anyone. I thought that the solution was obvious: make it clear that the government can only grant civil unions (to straights or gays) that recognized that two people were now recognized by society as domestic partners and would have certain legal rights; i.e., to file their tax forms jointly and claim any children of either partner, to be considered "relatives" for the purpose of hospital visits, life insurance, wills, etc. But now its obvious that the conservatives don't just want to "keep marriage sacred," they want to deny gay couples the rights that straight couples take for granted. I'm so angry I could spit.

Okay, rant over. So, what are the viewpoints of the folks here on homosexuality in general and gay marriage in particular?

Gay union for legal or love reasons is OK, but gay marriage is against natural law and unnatural. But marriage is all man made anyway. I don't judge other that how nature does, so to each their own. Once two like sexes can reproduce I guess no holds are barred, but the religious community must OK it.