Buddha

I want to agree with you. I've had similar thoughts lately.

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Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are american dreams

shadowind

en, science and religion, they don't seem the same to me, they do have some overlap here or there.. at least in the common meaning of religion. but if you define it as a desire to find things out then they also seem to overlap there alittle. but religion often seems more about a book or doctrine then finding truth. science seems more about observing, explaining, predicting, and helping to me.

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remember "for mere impulse of appetite is slavery, while obedience to a law which we prescirbe to oursleves is liberty"-rousseau: the concept of the general will "if we can not reconcile all opions, then let us endeavour to unite all hearts."-?"to be is to be perceived"-? "‘We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know’-Robert G. Ingersoll

Og

EXACTLY! That's what the NIH and the NSF are. I view PhD and Professor as the "ministers and reverends" of the new global human religion. There is NO other structured social system that so opens our eyes to the nature of the universe or so transcends boundaries of human cultures and nations.

The scientific meetings I goto have people from all nations all working together towards common goals. This is true in all manner of fields of science.

The tough questions are ones that we must address with a firm scientific approach (i.e. the ones about genetic manipulation). We must think about them and analyze their possibilities and look at possible outcomes in a scientific manner. We must not go with the eyes closed classical religious approach.

It is true what Marmalade says. The conflict between religion and science is the conflict between the science of 3000BCE (i.e. genesis) and the science of 2000CE. What happened in between is that science got tainted and turned into something horrible. The renaissance began the rebirth of religion in its true form.

There is a separation of church and state in terms of this new horror that was created by post-roman christianity. It does, however, make modern science the state sponsored religion of the USA and other countries.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

AB517

Og and Marm I see what you are saying and in that context I agree.

I use the Word science to describe the process of finding out how things work.
I apply the scientific model to my belief system. I guess it is how I use the two words. If they were used by the average person in the way you have defined them I am ok with it. But s I use the word religion and science, they can compared and even share attributes, but for today they must be kept separate. More for logistical considerations than philosophical ideas, in your context I agree 100%.

marmalade

The reason Christianity didn't become the state religion of the US is not because the forefathers didn't believe they lived in a Christian nation. From what I've read, they simply couldn't agree upon which form of Christianity should be the state religion and so instead they declined giving state sanction to any group of Christians.

This created a void that had to be filled. And science was the only thing that everyone could agree upon. And as a fledgling industrial country, science was the perfect state religion. The country was fueled by idealism and so is science.

If you want to know what a society's religion is, then look to what that society rarely questions. In our society, science gets questioned less than anything else.

AB517

Boy weren't we lucky.

I thought it was a place for the euro's to come and practice what ever form they wanted? I thought that was the major reason for sepatration of church and state? A set of rules for all people regardless of the church (or religion)you attend.

well either way, I am so glad they are seprate.

Og

I think a better test is to look at what buildings are the tallest in their cities. In our case it's business buildings which are mostly driven by technology. In old europe, it was the cathedrals.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

marmalade

Yeah, I've heard that argument before. It might be a better test. Still, what is interesting is not merely that we build tall buildings, but that most people don't question humanity's desire to do so. Its not a wise use of money because tall buildings are impractical.

The tallest buildings are business buildings. Business is driven by technology and technology is what allows us to build big buildings. And of course, technology is the socio-cultural manifestation of science. Business, technology, and science are all of the same religion.

Og

Yeah and there's also the fact that all people have these idols of the science religion with them at all times and permeating their homes. Cell phones, TVs, etc.. It connects friends and families, answers many of our questions (i.e. google), and provides comfort, entertainment, and help when needed.

Fall in a ditch and break your leg? Pray to your god or call 911 on your cell phone. See which one gets you out of it

Looking for an ideal mate? Pray to your god to send him/her to you or join eHarmony.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

marmalade

I'm sure there are many reasons that the separation was created.

I just read someone say that the founders were ambivalent towards religion, but I'm not sure what they meant by this. They were politicians and I'd say all politicians are ambivalent about religion because of the difficulty of applying morality on such a large scale.

I don't know that they saw the country as a Christian nation per se, but obviously they realized this is a strongly Christian culture. Many of the founders may have been Deists rather than Theists, but they still were Christians that agreed with the basic beliefs and moral ideals of Christianity.

I'm pretty sure they weren't trying to create a secular nation as we understand it today.