debdodd

An-jel ........ got a question for you, yeah and lets include you also jaej ..... when does an embryo become a fetus?? I'll give you a little fertility 101 class in case you forgot from biology class.

The process of fertilization/conception happens in the fallopian tubes, Sperm and ovum (unfertilized egg) meet up there, hook up and cells start dividing ........ the fertilized egg travels down the fallopian tube until it reaches the uterus where it adheres to a section of the uterus, develops a placenta, umbilical cord and continues to grow into a viable infant .... does "it" become a "life" at conception?

This isn't meant to be a trick question or put either of you on the spot I am just curious about what you thought/think? Go ahead and jump in also LC if you want ...

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

jaej

That would depend on your definition of life. As I've said, I think life begins at birth.

__________________
Μολὼν Λαβέ

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

debdodd

okay jaej, once I hear in from the others I will reply to this ... thanks for your view ...

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

The An-Jel

jaej was asking about a fetus thats the answer I thought of... I think it begins at fertilization but you know... an unwanted child will not be a happy child and I will leave that discussion at that unless you want more.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

Og

Brain death is well characterized and is a legal definition of death. I don't know why we can't say that brain life is when life begins (a certain amount of neural tissue or even just the first differentiated neuron). A blastocyst has neither.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

debdodd

okay Og, I know you know all about the brain, etc ....but I am attempting to see where the others see life beginning ..... so .... let's see

*there's one for life beginning at fertilization
*there's one for life beginning when brain neurons begin firing
*there's one for life beginning with the infant's first breath

anymore takers??? how about we let this thread see what others say for a while? How about our "believers" what do you guys think? Perhaps this would even make a good new thread in light of the Supreme court ruling this week.

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

The An-Jel

The rigged Supreme Court that has nothing to do with Politics? Wow I respect them.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

debdodd

my questions is simply about the perceived beginning of a human life, It is not about the partial birth abortion ruling of the Supreme Court. This thought was triggered due to the media coverage of it only ..... I'm simply curious in regards to when people believe life begins .... nothing to do with corrupt politician or policies. Deb

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

Og

The belief that life begins at conception is the application of 9th century BC understanding of our world to 21st century AD choices. 3000 years have seen a lot. What people believe is not all that important. What's important is what is known about the systems involved. We know that neural networks are the guiding components of organisms and where ideas such as self and memory and experience are stored and processed.

If you think that what people believe is important I think that the real problem there is "why do people want to be governed by uninformed and irrational viewpoints?"

No neurons = no experience, no self, no conscious life. Complex organic cells? Yes. Human life? No.

This is not a gray area. It's not a slippery slope. It's like giving blood to a blood bank or bone marrow to someone with lukemia or having a tumor removed.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

debdodd

I "get it" Og .... I wanted to see what the others thought ...... jaej is misinformed as is an-jel but I am still curious as to what "others" think.

Yes I think it is important what people believe .... to jaej an infant isn't a life until it takes it's first breath .... which as we know isn't true but to me it is interesting to see what others believe is the "threshold" between life and not life. I believe as you do that it is when the brain starts developing and if I'm not mistaken .... for a human it is at about 7 or 8 weeks of gestation .. you may know the precise timetable.

I don't get what you are saying when you said "It's like giving blood to a blood bank or bone marrow to someone with lukemia or having a tumor removed". That made no sense to me in relationship to where/when life begins.

My disagreement with jaej's "1st breath is life's beginning" would imply that if let's say someone shot a woman 8 months pregnant .... she lives but the baby doesn't .... the child would have been viable had it been delivered at 8 months therefore should the shooter be implicated in the death of the child ... I am not looking at loopholes and all the other legal rhetoric or mitigating circumstances. Just plain old is it considered taking a "life"? According to jaej .... no.

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."