Muhammad in The Bible - Page 6

DNND · 01-14-2008, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunno

So those sayings by man and not recorded in the Quran are more important or truer than the Quran? can you translate that passage 4:34 I believe it is
Thanks

That's a very good question. And like I promised I will talk about that verse.

The reason i posted those sayings of Muhammad, is because I wanted to show what Islam teaches about this subject. The Qur'an is the highest form of authority in Islam, but when there are different interpretations of a verse and we can't agree on what the Qur'an says about a certain subject, we go and see how Muhammad's interpretation was, and what he has to say about that subject.

Now let's get to the Qur'an.

The issue in that verse is about disloyal women. It is there to try and prevent disloyalty. Second the translation beat is very harsh in my opinion, so even if we're talking about disloyal women it never says to beat the crap out of them, it's rather a tap that's not meant to hurt. And third, even if we're talking about a light tap, it's really only mentioned as a third and final option.

But let's say someone is still confused and doesn't agree with what I said, what does the Qur'an tell men and how to deal with women in general?

In the SAME chapter of the Qur'an (The chapter is called The Women by the way), just a few verses BEFORE that, the Qur'an reads as follows:

[4:19] O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Now the verse is ordering men to NOT treat women with harshness, and to live with them based on kindness and equity.

So let's use our heads here, how can treating someone with kindness, and not being harsh be equal to beating?

You are sick: You just tried to justify putting a finger on a woman, which is immoral even if the woman is disloyal. And furthermore, there isn’t an Arabic word which translates to mean lightly.

Quote:

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

tommi atkins · 01-14-2008, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunno

How come nobody has brought up how you are to beat your wife? I have read tapping, but what is tapping? DNND brought up a Smack to the face. do you mean open handed or a sock to the jaw Pow to moon Alice to the Moon. I brought up the point that Ralphie ol boy leaves the marital bed and embarasses the old lady infront of the staff and her friends and family. That seems severe so then you just go and punch her in arm as a last resort?
Hmmmm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1477.htm

This makes it nice and clear. Enjoy.

Dunno · 01-14-2008, 12:53 PM

I'm not to shocked by that. I still do not understand where this light beating comes from about leaving a marks. Is that from the Quran or is that the interpataion that is being tossed around? I know that the Quran says to be nice until they get out of line then you yell at them then you desert the bed then you can beat them into submission. what happens if you tap that woman and she still dosent come around to the mans way of thinking? does Islam say then to just give up or can you start leaving marks?

tommi atkins · 01-15-2008, 03:43 AM

From many, many hours of research the answer i usually get is.
1) Its interpretation, Islamic Jurisprudence. (The realisation that this verse is morally bankrupt and, being unable to remove it or abrogate it, the beatings simply become Light taps, and are a symbol of womans lofy place in Islam), unlike the Decadant west who's culture is to rape anything that moves and force women to walk naked in wal-mart.

2) You just give up. Divorce is an option. Again thats just personal choice. Since there are some scholars that are less rabid on the light tapping of toothbrush's and more amenable to a "green stick, no thicker than the thumb", whipping is permissable depending on who you want to listen to.

Lecter · 01-18-2008, 06:23 PM

hmmmm

I mean no offense to anyone, but some of you guys have really below basic knowledge of Islam. I mean I am right here if anyone wants to ask questions, but it's wrong to talk about things you don't have enough knowledge about.

Plus sometimes I get the impression people just argue to prove they are right no matter what. Some people don't care about learning.

Anyways here's a video from a Muslim scholar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf5ElnfMJQo

enjoy

tommi atkins · 01-19-2008, 01:10 AM

Thanks for the link lecter.
He's a happy chap.

As i've said before, lots of scholars are interpreting "Hit" that in the very last resort, when youve had all you can takes and ye cant takes no moreswhen all else has failed, then the woman has to be showed who is the supporter and provider and who is to be respected. So off he goes for the toothbrush and gently taps her on the shoulder, tippity tappety tap. The woman then realises her error and conducts herself as befitting a muslimah.

This guy confirms this, so we can see that the taliban" working up a sweat" on a ankle showing girl, might be acting a little unislamicaly. Thats because they dont need to translate the Koran in the light of western civilisation. They can just get right to its root and ignore scholars like this.
It would be sweet if we could watch the Officers of the Ministry for promotion of virtue and prevention of vicechasing a woman whose burkah had ridden up her leg, in circles round and round Kabul, tapping away lightly with their toothpicks gently admonishing her for not taking their hint when they banished her from their beds.

Unfortunatly they use chains and swords and the women die. Because the Koran allows "hitting" of the weaker sex by the stronger.

SirArthur · 02-29-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNND

You are sick: You just tried to justify putting a finger on a woman, which is immoral even if the woman is disloyal. And furthermore, there isn’t an Arabic word which translates to mean lightly.

I found the books of Islam so incoherent that you can find whatsoever to justify whatsoever by those books. You want to beat up your woman? Islam has verses and chapters to support you. You don't? Islam has verses and chapters to support you also.

But in the end the "sample of virtue" is Mohammad, and Mohammad was a warlord, known for beheaded more than 900 people himself and to fight in many battles and wars; was a pedophile, married to Aisha when she was 6, consummated when she was 9; was a robber, he start his "beautiful" career by lotting caravans passing Medina's Oasis; was a Draconian judge, he convicted hundreds of people to death for reasons such as adultery (his favorite), robbery, drinking... Certainly this "thing" isn't what I consider minimally as a "sample of virtue".

Summing up this topic, if a lie is repeated on 2, 3, 4 or more books, it doesn't become truth anyway.

tommi atkins · 03-02-2008, 02:43 AM

The books are incoherent because you dont understand Arrabic, a pure and beautiful language, the clear language chosen by God himself and cant be misinterpreted, The verses that state you should beat your women are misinterpreted (deliberatly) by islamophobes to put Islam in a bad light, Mohammed never killed anyone , he fought against the oppressors who rejected Gods word, (Thats simply justice being enacted), 6yr olds were not forbidden, it was just the culture of the day, he diddnt rob caravans he fought the quareshi oppressers and their booty was divinely given, he diddnt drink, alcohol being a sin is only allowed in heaven.

So as you can see, all your points are now totally invalid, so I invite you to revert.

SirArthur · 03-02-2008, 08:52 AM

Here we go again... Arabic is actually the language that sounds worse on the whole World, sounds like they suffering from some sort of throat disease.

Still, DO NOT MAKE FOOLISH EXCUSES WITH YOUR LANGUAGE!

I really don't mind you because I'm sick and tired of such stupidness coming from religion people. So now "the enemies of God" aren't people or is just "justice" to kill them... OK, them! Go buy yourself a brain. You're a disgrace to mankind!

For the rest of the forum people, specially those who, not being Muslim, insists to defend these creatures:

See how they think?

"he fought against the oppressors who rejected Gods word, (Thats simply justice being enacted)" - For them to kill anybody that do not believe on their beast is "Justice"..

tommi atkins · 03-02-2008, 09:20 AM

Chill out mate.
I'm agnostic.

I was simply flagging up the stock answers given to me by muslims on this subject, see the smiley at the end of me post?
Yeah its all nonsensical, but thats the mindset. It's better to try and understand the mindset so that you have a position to debate with them.