The Identity of a Jewish people: What does it mean to be a Jew? - Page 5

niranjan · 08-31-2007, 11:32 PM

As an Indian, which has no tradition of antisemitism, I wish to record my observations over here. In this , I do not wish to offend any jew over here, and if did, I wish to humbly apologize.

However , I have always wondered why the jews have been targetted so vehemently by a lot of nations and races. The atrocities committed against them by the nazis , christian fundamentalists and the islamic fundamentalists , is unparalleled.

The jews have never persecuted any of these peoples. So why on earth are the jews being persecuted in such a vile unprecedented manner by all kinds of diverse people!!!! It always used to confound me.

I think perhaps a tangible superiority complex in some jews must have pricked the ego of some of these guys, and this must have been what set the base for the atrocities.

The fact that the jews lacked political and military power , also must have compounded the problems.

I also do not at all agree with the fact that people should be attacked for a perceived superiority complex. The jews with the attitude problem, should have been enlightened with wisdom and love,not through violence. After all, they were not harming anyone or anything.

Also I believe it may be just a minority of the jewish people, not at all the majority.

I have seen many jews who are humble ,tolerant,beautiful and broadminded. Albert Einstein, who was a zionist, was also a great secular humanist and a great role model for every human being on earth.

Just a few thoughts of mine, on this subject.

epicureious · 09-01-2007, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niranjan

The jews have never persecuted any of these peoples (who have attacked them). So why on earth are the jews being persecuted in such a vile unprecedented manner by all kinds of diverse people!!!! It always used to confound me.

I think perhaps a tangible superiority complex in some jews must have pricked the ego of some of these guys, and this must have been what set the base for the atrocities.

Niranjan, do you realize you just blamed the people who were attacked, marginalized, forced to live in ghettos, made to wear undignified hats, armbands, killed and tortured for their beliefs -- you just blamed them for the atrocities done to them?

How can a "superior attitude" warrant that amount of persecution. Are there not laws in the Europe or even India that you could think of that might protect someone from being "pricked" and murdering someone (or attempting genocide)? Who really has the superior attitude when the Church policy was to force Spanish and Portuguese Jews during the Inquisition to convert to Christianity or die? That isn't arrogant? Actually that goes way beyond anti-Semtism, into murder and genocide. But, when you say that murder and genocide is ok because you think some Jews have superior attitudes and deserved it -- that, dear one, is anti-Semitism.

A peek at Christianity as a state religion sprouting out of the Roman Empire designed to control, manipulate and squash all opposition is more plausible hypothesis for why they tend toward lawlessness and genocide. As long as the people with a conscience are out of the way, it's a lot easier for petty despots to control the world.

niranjan · 09-01-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epicureious

Quote:

Originally Posted by niranjan

The jews have never persecuted any of these peoples (who have attacked them). So why on earth are the jews being persecuted in such a vile unprecedented manner by all kinds of diverse people!!!! It always used to confound me.

I think perhaps a tangible superiority complex in some jews must have pricked the ego of some of these guys, and this must have been what set the base for the atrocities.

Niranjan, do you realize you just blamed the people who were attacked, marginalized, forced to live in ghettos, made to wear undignified hats, armbands, killed and tortured for their beliefs -- you just blamed them for the atrocities done to them? .

I hate intensely the atrocities done towards the jews and I would have fought for them and for anne as well, if I had been there and gladly died for them fighting to the death . It would have been a great honour.

However , a superiority complex is also a sign of something unhealthy, and blocks universality and empathy and love.

As I said, I don't believe all jews are like that, as is the case of great jews like Einstein, spinoza and others.

However,there are indeed a few idiots in every religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by epicureious

How can a "superior attitude" warrant that amount of persecution. Are there not laws in the Europe or even India that you could think of that might protect someone from being "pricked" and murdering someone (or attempting genocide)? Who really has the superior attitude when the Church policy was to force Spanish and Portuguese Jews during the Inquisition to convert to Christianity or die? That isn't arrogant? Actually that goes way beyond anti-Semtism, into murder and genocide. But, when you say that murder and genocide is ok because you think some Jews have superior attitudes and deserved it -- that, dear one, is anti-Semitism. .

And I have clearly stated that a perceived 'superiority complex' does not and should not warrant any form of attack or atrocity whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by epicureious

[
A peek at Christianity as a state religion sprouting out of the Roman Empire designed to control, manipulate and squash all opposition is more plausible hypothesis for why they tend toward lawlessness and genocide. As long as the people with a conscience are out of the way, it's a lot easier for petty despots to control the world.

True indeed...

The world is a dangerous place to live , not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who do not do anything about it.

--- Albert Einstein

**The An-Jel** · 09-01-2007, 02:32 PM

Well to target the Jews is easy as both epicurious and niranjan have stated above. If someone has no power other than the metaphysical and conviction then the people with physical power can easily persecute these people with ease. It seems that these were the efforts of say; the Nazi's during WWII. If the Jews had tanks and guns during the events before WWII then probably the holocaust would never have happened.

Israel is at the moment a case in point I think in this debate. They have the fire power and nukes on their side and they are still here. The Communists in China are still here, the Christians in America are still here, the Russians with all of their disassociative qualities are still here. Power, physical power, has a lot to say against the conviction of beliefs. God obviously does not intervene and any religion and culture can take that to the bank. After WWII the Jews are given a homeland, given the power to defend it, wow they are thriving. What does that say?

epicureious · 09-01-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The An-Jel

Well to target the Jews is easy as both epicurious and niranjan have stated above. If someone has no power other than the metaphysical and conviction then the people with physical power can easily persecute these people with ease. It seems that these were the efforts of say; the Nazi's during WWII. If the Jews had tanks and guns during the events before WWII then probably the holocaust would never have happened.

Israel is at the moment a case in point I think in this debate. They have the fire power and nukes on their side and they are still here. The Communists in China are still here, the Christians in America are still here, the Russians with all of their disassociative qualities are still here. Power, physical power, has a lot to say against the conviction of beliefs. God obviously does not intervene and any religion and culture can take that to the bank. After WWII the Jews are given a homeland, given the power to defend it, wow they are thriving. What does that say?

I'm guessing you're trying to say might makes right? Your examples span an entire 50 years. Looking at the past 5,000 Mark Twain said (not me):

"The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then . . . passed away. The Greek and the Roman followed. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what they always were, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of parts. … All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but they remain. What is the secret of this immortality?"

Actually mentioning Niranjan, India/Tibet is the other long-lived civilization that has beaten their would-be conquerers back both with and without weapons, watching countries come and go over the past 5,000 years time.

There is a lot to be said for fighting wars from the moral high ground. It's possible to win with less fire power, or loose with more.

epicureious · 09-01-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niranjan

I hate intensely the atrocities done towards the jews and I would have fought for them and for anne as well, if I had been there and gladly died for them fighting to the death . It would have been a great honour.

However , a superiority complex is also a sign of something unhealthy, and blocks universality and empathy and love.

As I said, I don't believe all jews are like that, as is the case of great jews like Einstein, spinoza and others.

However,there are indeed a few idiots in every religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by epicureious

[
A peek at Christianity as a state religion sprouting out of the Roman Empire designed to control, manipulate and squash all opposition is more plausible hypothesis for why they tend toward lawlessness and genocide. As long as the people with a conscience are out of the way, it's a lot easier for petty despots to control the world.

True indeed...

The world is a dangerous place to live , not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who do not do anything about it.

--- Albert Einstein

Isn't that the truth!
Thank you for your kind response and offer to defend the innocent. You already have!

**The An-Jel** · 09-02-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epicureious

Quote:

Originally Posted by The An-Jel

Well to target the Jews is easy as both epicurious and niranjan have stated above. If someone has no power other than the metaphysical and conviction then the people with physical power can easily persecute these people with ease. It seems that these were the efforts of say; the Nazi's during WWII. If the Jews had tanks and guns during the events before WWII then probably the holocaust would never have happened.

Israel is at the moment a case in point I think in this debate. They have the fire power and nukes on their side and they are still here. The Communists in China are still here, the Christians in America are still here, the Russians with all of their disassociative qualities are still here. Power, physical power, has a lot to say against the conviction of beliefs. God obviously does not intervene and any religion and culture can take that to the bank. After WWII the Jews are given a homeland, given the power to defend it, wow they are thriving. What does that say?

I'm guessing you're trying to say might makes right? Your examples span an entire 50 years. Looking at the past 5,000 Mark Twain said (not me):

"The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then . . . passed away. The Greek and the Roman followed. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what they always were, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of parts. … All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but they remain. What is the secret of this immortality?"

Yes and so has Christianity at the moment and so has actual Philosophy. Actual Philosophers have stood the test of time because even with people damning them they have survived and eventually as with all the brutal regimes they fall. Simple survival takes over and it isn't Jewish or Christian it is the spirit of the Universe as it is whether there is a God or not that pushes a human to carry on under the simple guidelines under which it was created.

**Jayhawker Soule** · 09-02-2007, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The An-Jel

(Waiting for a lie that says Jaywalker has never had a dealing with a Jewish businessman or is not of the Jewish culture within himself.)

That this site would permit itself to be moderated by someone characterized by such antisemitic drivel is shameful ...

sisterX · 09-02-2007, 08:00 PM

I am going to agree with jayhawker on this one. Many people confuse judaism with zionism. While most zionists are Jews, most Jews are not zionists. And there are many non-jewish zionists.

epicureious · 09-02-2007, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The An-Jel

Quote:

Originally Posted by epicureious

Quote:

Originally Posted by The An-Jel

Israel is at the moment a case in point I think in this debate. They have the fire power and nukes on their side and they are still here. The Communists in China are still here, the Christians in America are still here, the Russians with all of their disassociative qualities are still here. Power, physical power, has a lot to say against the conviction of beliefs. God obviously does not intervene and any religion and culture can take that to the bank. After WWII the Jews are given a homeland, given the power to defend it, wow they are thriving. What does that say?

I'm guessing you're trying to say might makes right? Your examples span an entire 50 years. Looking at the past 5,000 Mark Twain said (not me):

"The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then . . . passed away. The Greek and the Roman followed. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what they always were, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of parts. … All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but they remain. What is the secret of this immortality?"

Yes and so has Christianity at the moment and so has actual Philosophy. Actual Philosophers have stood the test of time because even with people damning them they have survived and eventually as with all the brutal regimes they fall. Simple survival takes over and it isn't Jewish or Christian it is the spirit of the Universe as it is whether there is a God or not that pushes a human to carry on under the simple guidelines under which it was created.

An Jel you sidestep the issue. Christianity and philosphy are not peoples or nations. They are movements and ideas. The unique parts about both Judaism and Hinduism is that neither were started by one person -- they are cultures. Three million people received the covenant which kicked off the state of Israel on Sinai. Christianity, if you haven't noticed, was started by a Jew. Islam was started by one of Abraham's grandchildren by way of his wife Hagar. Actually philosophies come and go usually by way of one person.

My point was not whether there was a God or not, and how unreasonable the concept, but that Israel and India have survived with and without firepower, disproving your assertion that might makes right and is the only reason for survival. The Roman Empire and the Greeks were better armed than the Huns and the Vandals. So, you must agree with me since now you're saying that God is not the cause of this mysterious fluke of survival. So we agree that it is possible for weaker and minorities to survive even genocidal attempts for some reason, we just have not established why.