VenomFangX

A prophecy made hundreds of years before Christ foretold than once the Messiah came, there would be no other prophets.

'Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY and to anoint the most holy place.' (Daniel 9:24).

So, by God's own word, Mohammed is not a prophet. Also, 600 years before Mohammed was born, God warned us about Islam. Mohammed was foretold, in this passage;

'Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.' (2:22-23) 'you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come…' (2:18) In the fourth chapter false prophets are noted, and one of the characteristics of a false prophet is to deny that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. In a positive way, 'Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God.'(4:15) John continues to warn: 'He who believes in the Son has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God, has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. And this is the testimony that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life, he who has not the Son has not life.' (5:10-12)

Mohammed was a conniving illiterate who mocked the divinity of Jesus. A sexually active polygamist who began his life as a pagan and ended it in a new form of pagan belief of his own making (yet could perform no miracles, make no prophecies, and did not fullfill any criteria God has given for us to recognize a prophet of God). Warlike, Mohammed's focus was on this life and not upon eternal life except to the degree that the concept as presented offered the fulfillment of humanistic goals. When challenged and not with a strong army he fled (Jesus, with the power of God, one time walked right through a crowd desiring to put him to death and toward the end went to Jerusalem knowing full well that He would suffer and be put to a horrible death).

The teachings Mohammed personally developed over a period of time he taught to pagans who had little or no association with authentic monotheistic teachings. Among them his perversions were able to be seen as an improvement over their worship of multiple gods who could neither see nor speak. Nothing he ever said was reinforced by miracles as were the teachings of Moses, Elijah, and the Messiah (savior from the consequence of eternal separation from the presence of God) known as Jesus. When he obtained sufficient power he enforced his teachings through conquest and the penalty of death. In effect he became his own god while enforcing the worship of a false god he named Allah – a singular person god that is an impossibility as has already been illustrated. Allah, an imaginated god, is not an existent god except in the minds of the followers of the Koran.

As we all know, Muslims deny that Jesus is God. Muslims will claim to worship the same God as the Christians and Jews, but on this fact alone, they do not. Let's now prove Jesus is God.

In Exodus, God gave Moses His holy name.

Exodus 3:14 But,' said Moses to God, 'when I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' if they ask me, 'What is his name?' what am I to tell them?' God replied, 'I am who am.' Then he added, 'This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you.'

Now look at what Jesus said.

'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I AM!' (John 8:58)

Jesus used the name of God for Himself! The people at the time picked up stones to kill Him when He claimed to be 'I AM', because they knew what He was claiming. This name, 'I AM' or 'YAHWEH' is found over six thousand (6000!) times in the Torah and The Bible. All the prophets of God knew this personal name. However, the quran never mentions this name once, and mohammed never knew this name. 'allah' is not the name of the God of Abraham, and the fact that the true name of God is missing from the quran is proof that 'allah' is not the True and Living God.

Jesus had two titles. Son of Man (refering to His manhood) and the Son of God (refering to His godhood). Infact, The Father even calls Jesus the 'Son' and even calls Jesus 'God'.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Flipping back to the Old Testament, this was written many hundreds of years before Jesus Christ was born. This is a prophecy of His birth:

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

A child called God? Incredible. Now you are going to claim The Bible is corrupt, yet we found the dead sea scrolls which pre-date the birth of Christ by a few hundred years. Those scriptures match perfectly what we use today; they have not changed at all. So, we know God can preserve His word for over 2000 years, and have no reason to doubt the validity of the scriptures. The only reason that Muslims claim The Bible is 'corrupt' is because it teaches the complete opposite of everything that Islam does.

Furthermore, there are many differences between the God of Abraham, and the false god of islam. The True and Living God only allows a man to marry one wife, yet the false god of islam allows you to have many wives, which is pure pornography and an abomination in the sight of God. God's moral laws never change, yet 'allah' tried to change them. 'allah' is satan in disguise.

__________________
Atheists better pray that they aren't wrong thewaythetruth.com

jaej

So, since jesus claimed to be god...he is god? What if I claim to be god?

Hmm...Since you seem to interpret the bible so literally, what about all that junk in revelations about the antichrist being the herald of the end times? About him bringing peace to the entire world, and breaking it off into seven regions, and seven years of peace, but it's really seven years of tribulation? If you're right about muhammed, the world should have ended...1400 years ago!!

Indeed?

Out of curiosity, how many wives did solomon, the son of david, have? Several hundred, if memory serves. Other people with multiple wives include david, abraham, and job.

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alexie

Hi Jaej

"So, since jesus claimed to be god...he is god? What if I claim to be god?"

Well jaej.

Go ahead claim to be God, then walk on water, heal the sick, bring the dead back to life. fufil prophecy, collect together 12 disciples, be killed, buried and come back to walk amongst the living for a few weeks and then ascend into heaven. Do that and your claim may prove to be true.

alexie

jaej

Please prove to me that all these things happened.

Besides, that's not the reason venomfang gave for jesus being god. He said he was because he said "I AM", which only guaranteed that he would be crucified for blasphemy. If the bible is a reliable historical source, which it isn't.

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Og

I'm sure I could find some people that would be willing to write some stories about me doing all these things.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
Satchitananda - True Being, Pure Consciousness, and Bliss
Tat Tvam Asi - Thou art That.
You & I, no distinction.
Mettā & Namaste

alexie

Hi Jaej

"If the bible is a reliable historical source, which it isn't."

The early accounts of Jesus supports the faith we have in Christ.
Josephs was a great Jewish historian of his time. He wrote about Jesus stating “there was a wise man called Jesus… he was known to be virtuous…he appeared to them 3 days after his crucifixion…he was perhaps the messiah…”
This is one of the many accounts of Jesus outside the Bible. There are at least ten known non-Christian writers who mention Jesus within 150 years of His life. In the same period there are nine non-Christian authors who mention the Roman Emperor Tiberius Caesar. One less than Jesus. So to say Jesus did not exist says much in our history did not. Then to say that these authors lied about Jesus or all were ill informed requires much evidence and faith. Put together all the Christian authors and you find that writings about Jesus number 43 to 10 against Tiberius.
The Bible is used as historical text for many. Why?
There are at nearly 5,700 handwritten Greek texts of the New Testament. There are 9,000 in other languages. The next closest work is Homer’s Iliad with 643 manuscripts. Few historians question the historicity of the other works such as Homer.
The time gaps between original and later copies is interesting to look at. The New testament can speak of 25 years with some texts. Plato is 1,200 years with 7 copies. People do not question his existence or what he said.
In A.D 303 The Roman emperor Diocletian ordered persecution of Christians. He called for the destruction of churches, manuscripts, books and Christians.
Hundreds, if not thousands of texts were destroyed. Even if he succeeded we could still piece together and reconstruct the New Testament. Why? The church fathers quoted the New testament as much as 36,289 times. That means today with no New Testament you can go to the library and read the New Testament through the church fathers. The New testament has been assessed for errors many times and is cited as having 99.5% accuracy.
We have people saying early Christians were biased. If we follow this logic that means that no one in their field of expertise can comment on thier area as they may be biased.
There is so much more about the Bible and its truth. Another area is that not one aerological dig contradicts the Bible. Some are so sure the Bible is wrong yet cannot find any negative evidence in this area.
To disbelieve all these facts you must deny much of history or have faith greater than a Christian to believe it is wrong and that there is no God.

alexie

alexie

And this

Here we confront the very crucial question of the burden of proof. Should we assume that the gospels are reliable unless they are proven to be unreliable? Or should we assume the gospels are unreliable unless they are proven to be reliable? Are they innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent? Skeptical scholars almost always assume that the gospels are guilty until proven innocent, that is, they assume that the gospels are unreliable unless and until they are proven to be correct concerning some particular fact. I'm not exaggerating here: this really is the procedure of skeptical critics.
There have also been interesting archaeological discoveries as well bearing on the gospels. For example, in 1961 the first archaeological evidence concerning Pilate was unearthed in the town of Caesarea; it was an inscription of a dedication bearing Pilate’s name and title. Even more recently, in 1990 the actual tomb of Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over Jesus’s trial, was discovered south of Jerusalem.
According to Luke Johnson, a New Testament scholar at Emory University, Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate and continued to have followers after his death. IS THE NEW TESTAMENT RELIABLE? Because the New Testament provides the primary historical source for information on the resurrection, many critics during the 19th century attacked the reliability of these biblical documents. By the end of the 19th century, however, archaeological discoveries had confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts. Discoveries of early papyri bridged the gap between the time of Christ and existing manuscripts from a later date. Those findings increased scholarly confidence in the reliability of the Bible. William F. Albright, who in his day was the world's foremost biblical archaeologist, said: "We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80.” Coinciding with the papyri discoveries, an abundance of other manuscripts came to light (over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today). The historian Luke wrote of "authentic evidence" concerning the resurrection. Sir William Ramsay, who spent 15 years attempting to undermine Luke credentials as a historian, and to refute the reliability of the New Testament, finally concluded: "Luke is a historian of the first rank . . . This author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians.
"I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history. E. M. Blaiklock, Professor of Classics, Auckland University
There exists no document from the ancient world, witnessed by so excellent a set of textual and historical testimonies . . . Skepticism regarding the historical credentials of Christianity is based upon an irrational bias. Clark Pinnock
Mcmaster University.

If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt. F. F. Bruce, Manchester University
For the New Testament of Acts, the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming. Any attempt to reject its basic historicity, even in matters of detail, must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted. A. N. Sherwin-White, Classical Roman Historian

alexie

alexie

and as for Jesus being Son of God

Who is Jesus? This is as short as I can get it.
The Prince of Peace… The Word made man… Savior and Lord… The King of Kings… The Lion of Judah… The Lamb of God…Bright and Morning Star
When Jesus came to the area of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his followers, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They answered, “Some say you are John the Baptist. Others say you are Elijah, and still others say you are Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” Then Jesus asked them, “And who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because no person taught you that. My Father in heaven showed you who I am.” (Matthew 16:13-17, NCV)

When Jesus walked on water this was commonly known that God would walk on water. Jesus did not do this for some party trick. This knowledge of God walking on water is very much like people knowing why 666 is so significant.

alexie

sisterX

See the problem I have with Jesus being the son of God who has been sacrificed for the salvation of mankind is this;

what exactly does 'son of God' mean?

Why would God punish an innocent person for the crimes of others as though he were guilty? Why would God do that when He is The Most-Just?

Why does God need someone to suffer like that?

Is it not true that Jesus did not tell anyone to take him as a god, or to worship him?

Mark 10:6-9 and John 14:20, 15:1-7, 17:11, 17:18-23, 17:26 There are many verses in the Bible that speak of Jesus and God as being "one".

But does this mean “I am God”? Jesus never once said “I am God” or “worship me”. When Jesus said that he is “one” with God, it cannot be taken literally because Jesus also talked about others being “one” with God he said “...they also may be one in us” and "...they may be one, even as we are one."


Matthew 18:23-34, Luke 19:11-21, and John 20:26-29 Many of Jesus' disciples referred to Jesus as "Lord". Even Jesus himself said that he is their Lord. But does this mean that he is their God? If so why? The word Lord is used in many other contexts. Here in England we have many “Lords” that doesn’t mean they are ‘gods’.

In Mark 10:17-18, it reads:
"As he [Jesus] was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, 'Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?' Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

Why would Jesus say that if was indeed God? Why would he separate himself from God?

Also, when you talk about Jesus saying he was the son of God. This term was used extensively in the Old Testament too.
Job 1:6 says, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.” Also, in Job 38:7 it says, "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" These are in reference to angels who are created beings and the are not seen as being “literal” sons of God.

I will conclude by pointing out again, there is nowhere in the Bible which Jesus says either he is God or tells anyone to worship him.

And one more thing that I have not been able to get an answer for from christians;

If Jesus was God, why did he used to pray to "The Lord", if he was God who was he praying to?

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

alexie

Hey Sisterx

Good question.
Firstly the 300 or more prophecies predict Jesus coming as the son of God.
In Mathew we read about Jesus walking on water. This was predicted and that "God" would walk on water. One example is Job 9:8 (NIV)
"He alone stretched out the heavens and treads on the waves of the Sea".
Then we have Jesus when He says that, He is the truth, the life and the way. No one comes to the Father except through me".

In reference to Son of Man.Jesus is referred to as the "Son of Man" 88 times in the New Testament. What does this mean? Does not the Bible say Jesus was the Son of God? How then could Jesus also be the Son of Man? A first meaning of the phrase "Son of Man" is as a reference to the prophecy of Daniel 7:13-14, "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." The description "Son of Man" was a Messianic title. Jesus is the one who was given dominion and glory and a kingdom. When Jesus used this phrase related to Himself, He was assigning the “Son of Man” prophecy to Himself. The Jews of that era would have been intimately familiar with the phrase and to whom it referred. He was proclaiming Himself as the Messiah.

You are also, like many Muslims, and Christians too, confused about the trinity. Of course the word trinity is never used in the Bible but the 3 aspects of God can be traced to the old testament.
God the father sent His son(His offspring) to Earth and when Jesus left the Holy Spirit was left to counsel and dwell within each Christian.
Some scripture first
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deut 6:4-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1:14 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."John 4:24 3 in 1

The Quran too testifies that Jews and Christians, the people of the Book, believe in one God:

And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): But say, "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)." (Surah 29, 'Ankabut, verse 46)


In a number of other verses in the Torah, the Old Testament, (see Genesis 1:2-3, 18:2, 2 Samuel 23:2-3, etc.) the Trinity is alluded to, even though the concept was not recognized as such by the Jews of the Old Testament. The plural Hebrew word "elohim" used for God many times in the Old Testament also points to the Trinity, especially since there is no royal plural of respect in Hebrew.

Even though the word "Trinity" does not literally occur in these passages, nevertheless the concept is quite clearly taught. In Islam too God is called "El Adl", meaning "the Just", "El Wajid", meaning "The Inventor or Maker", "Edh Dhur", meaning "the harmful", etc. in the list of the 99 names of God. However these words are nowhere found in the Quran but Muslims still accept these attributes as belonging to God.

The Trinity of Christianity is truly representative of the Mind of God (commonly referred to as God the Father), His Thoughts, (commonly referred to as God the Holy Spirit) and His Word (commonly referred to as God the Son).

In the the Gospel according to John we read:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. He was with God in the beginning... The Word became flesh (in Jesus) and made his dwelling among us. (John 1:1,14)


In the Quran Jesus is called "a Word from God":

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him; his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God; " (Surah 3, Al-i-'Imran, verse 45)


In a similar way the Quran speaks about Jesus being a Spirit proceeding from God! In other parts people are described as having been strengthened with a spirit from God. At the creation Allah has breathed into man of His spirit (Surah 15, Al-Hijr, verse 29), but Jesus only IS the Spirit from Allah!

This is why Islamic tradition calls Jesus "Ruhullah", that means "Spirit of Allah". Neither the Spirit of Allah (the Thoughts) nor the Word (the mind expressed) of Him can have been created since whatever proceeds from God Himself is part of Him and must therefore have existed eternally. If God was without Mind at any time He would not be God; or if he was without Thoughts at any time He would cease to be the Almighty One which is impossible! Muslim theology confirms this belief by stating that the Quran is uncreated and has existed in eternity with God. There again we find pluralty within unity, something that is other then God but it is at the same time one with God.


alexie