redcliff

AllDon't be too sure, They can always say that they are Demons, A snake race -descendants of the Edenic snake, the descendants of Lilith; I believe (read it once in Von Daniken so I cannot attest to its veracity...) that the book of Zohar(?) actually mentions visitors from other planets who claimed they had 2suns.

If it is a simple life-form they find, they could say that Satan put it there to confuse us, or it's a conspiracy by atheistic scientists.

And so on.

Believe me, those people can explain away everything.

mohamedhassan

firstly, i didn't call him ignorent because he wasn't muslim i did so because he called me an idiot for merely posting this thread (its childish and i'm sorry). Second, islam has way more proof then any relgion out there, that is if your looking for proof! these scientific proofs aren't things that were DERIVED or infered in the quran but what is actually written in there (tell me which religion talks about embryology start out???). Also the scientific theory isn't a major theory in science because some of its points were refuted time and again (islam doesn't disown all of it but disowns man having come from a monekey!). I find it funny how i provided proof to you and you pick out one specific theory you want proven!! the quran unlike the bible NEVER claims the world has a definite time to it. Also there is no scientific proof against the qurans words (theory of evolution is STILL A THEORY!!!)

Where did you hear that islam will end when a man walks on the moon??? i fail to see the connection at all!! Lastly, islam doesn't disclaim any extraterristrial life at all so unlike other religions islam will always exist till the end of time. If you have any earnest qestions feel free to ask but if you want to play games and deny everything and not welcome intellectual talk then please don't wast e my time and your time. thank you

MartheGod

1. Okay. I see. 2. Islam doesn't have what appears to be hard, cold concrete scientific proof. And how do you know that Islam has more proof than EVERY other religion? Have you extinsively studied every religion? That's a pretty big statement.

"tell me which religion talks about embryology start out???" <--- I am...very confused.

Mohamed, you are really, really confused. There is no "scientific theory." A scientific theory is any theory that explains a phenomenon in nature i.e. Newton's Theory of Gravitation. You are confusing scientific theory with evolution. Since the evolution scientific theory has the most proof backing itself up, we continue to use this theory (Oh, and be very careful with this. Evolution does not necessarily set out to show how the world was created. It just states that things evolved. If you want to complain about something, complain about the "Big Bang Theory").

Mohamed, the monkey thing is a common misconception of evolution. The evolution theory does not necessarily say that we came from monkeys. It merely states that everything evolved and stuff. We are still trying to determine how we came about. What are you talking about?I didn't pick out a scientific theory to be proven.

Oh, and your link still doesn't provide enough proof that God/Allah actually EXISTS and that he/she created the world. I need solid, hardcore, observable, testable evidence...and it has to be from a NON-BIASED, scientific source. Sorry. I remember reading that Middle Eastern countries were very advanced in mathemetics, sciences, psychology, so that may be why there was so much knowledge about certain things. That doesn't necessarily prove that God exists or that he created the Earth.

I will investigate the site further, but I am too tired now (I'm also very wary of religious sites b/c sometimes they twist things around in order to fit what they want. And I think I should actually take a Q'uran studies class instead of blindly following what the website has to say because I don't know much about Islam in the first place).

Oh, and this line REALLY scares me: "Therefore, when there is a conflict between the meaning of a clear, explicit verse (meaning qat'ee ad-dalaalah) of the Qur'aan and 'modern' science. a Muslim must take the verse of the Qur'aan - without hesitation - over any scientific 'fact'." 0_o Again, I need solid, observable, scientific proof that Allah exists. I'm not just going to go off something that was written by HUMAN a long, long time ago.

Since it is your religion, the burden of proof is placed on YOU, not us. There is no way we could disprove your belief like we couldn't disprove that Santa, the unicorn, or fairies actually exist. Yes, Evolution is a theory. Duh. Since it's not a law, it's a theory. Theories are backed by PROOF. That's why they are called theories. The Q'uran, however, is not even a theory because it is not backed by proof. That is also why it isn't studied in science classes. And for your information and it-is-truth's info, science does not not necessarily = against religion. Some scientists ARE Muslims. However, they study, observe, and test things in order to try to understand things instead of just taking everything by face value. This is something everyone, Muslim or not, should do. Always keep an open mind.

P.S. I'm currently taking a Christian/Judaism/Muslim class so I can learn more about each religion.

redcliff

The theory of evolution is as fact-based, and supported by data as quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity (GR).
also, there is a difference between the THEORY of evolution and EVOLUTION
like there is a difference between the THEORY of gravity (GR) and GRAVITY. that evolution happened is a FACT like that GRAVITY exists is a fact. the MECHANISM behind either evolution or gravity is the base of the theory and might be refined (like GR replaced Newton's theory). so sorry, Men evolved from an APE-LIKE creature (not monkey). that is a fact not a theory.

nice to know, why didn't it? why didn't god reveal its age? it seems to me that a book that is a base for a religion and the ultimate truth should address that issue. The fact that it doesn't mention the age is a point against it and not for it.

BTW, did sciene find the bones of the winged horse yet? because that would be a nice proof.

The An-Jel

Yeah they could do what your saying. Initially they could claim anything they want but time and science will make them look stupid like Galileo did. All the justifications by the religious right will fall through and a more enlightened (i.e. logical and less God-orientated type) frame of mind will prevail. No one can escape reality... it always catches up with them.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

redcliff

Amen to that.

BTW, so if today I come up with a new religion and in its holy book I put all the scientific advancements of today (including the FACT of evolution, and embryology and quarks etc.) then according to mohamed I will have the best scientific religion in the world and you all should convert to my religion.

What if there was an Islam B that agreed with all the "scientific parts" of the quran but, disagreed with the non-provable parts (like Gabriel talked to someone else, or that Aristotle was also a prophet) how would you tell the differ? which one should you chose? his argument is cleanly based on false choice.

clearly, even if this supposed complete accordance with science is true (which is not) it does not prove the other parts - maybe some mischievous extraterrestrial (as mohamed pointed out Islam has no problem with them...) gave them some truths in order to confuse them and set them astray? after all, the best way to fool someone is to lace your words with some truths so they will buy the bigger lie.

}SoC{Sumguy

if i am correct, the bible never said that we were God's ONLY creations..

__________________
"And now you've seen his face,
and you know that there's a place
in the sun, for all that you've done.
For you and your children.
You always wanted to beleive.
Just ask and you'll receive,
beyond your wildest dreams.
And you already know how this will end...."

mohamedhassan

Firstly if you made a book today and included all the scientific facts of today theres nothing unique about that. But if you made a book today and wrote scientific advances that will be discovered 1400 years from today (not as a thoery but as a fact) then yes i would believe that your book is has some worth to look into but that would need to be proved. I don't understand what you mean by extraterristrial beings giving people some truth?? have you seen any extraterristrial beings come down and give anyone anything? Its pretty bizzare why anyone would believe in extraterrstrial beings and not belive that he was created

Anyway, Firstly the words of the quran were'nt twisted so you could believe in it. The website i gave you presents the words of the quran AS THEY WERE WRITTEN with out altering them or twisting them (which you seem to see other faiths do). For instance when god says by the darkness of the ocean do you think that 1400 years ago a person would just say that when they can see no darkness in the sea?

I don't understand how you can be more confident believing you came from an Ape-like creature then to believe you were created. For instance if i were to tell you that the computer your on just magically, on its own evolved over the years you would call me an idiot. if i told you i saw a rock slowly become an elephant you would call me an idiot. But you will believe that man came from an ape (which mind you they don't have a concrete proof that man came from and ape-like creature. to this day their trying to find various disconnections with in the evolutionary stages) even if they did prove humans came from ape-like creature (which they never will) then who made all this? who aligned the earth with all the planets? why is life so prime on this planet? who created the forces which separate the planets? regardless of how advanced science gets it will never be able to solve the puzzle of creation. in fact many years ago scientists would side with evolution but today as science advances more people are seeing the complexity and inticracy of life and the world and returning to belief in god

anyway my point was to show that the quran, unlike other beliefs, encourages science and states many concepts that we find today (a good example: 1400 years ago who new worker bees were female? its in the quran) the prophet mohammad (may peace and blessing be upon him) was illiterate and had never left the arabian pennisula so how can it be that he brought such a book?? answer its only from god!!

No one can refute what i showed you but if you choose to disregard it its your loss. If your really after truth then try to ask it poitltely (appreciate your manners MartheGod) if your just trying to argue for no purpose then don't post anything!

redcliff

I just referred to your argument that islam fits science better than other religions (yeah...), according to that my new religion would fit even better then islam, so it should be considered truer.

Have you seen the angel Gabriel giving the Quran? have you seen god? there are many people today that claim they have seen aliens, why should I not believe them but believe the story about Gabriel? extraterrestrials are not supernatural unlike god or angels, so they are more probable then a supernatural being. So actually an alien posing as Gabriel is more according to SCIENCE than an angel (and a flying saucer than a flying horse).
And who do you believe created god? if you say he wasn't created then you admit that something can exist without a cause or be its own cause. so I say that the universe had no cause or was self-created, and since we know the universe exists then according to parsimony of assumptions my assertion is more SCIENTIFIC. (and the universe is also simpler than god)

It's the old 'clock in the desert' argument or 'argument from design'. it has been refuted soooo many times. (see 'the blind watchmaker' by Dawkins). don't even try.

then islam is in trouble.

I checked, and the word bee (and ant) in hebrew is 'FEMALE' so they knew also.
all you guys twist and turn your books to somehow fit the facts. you only count the hits and ignore the misses.

science and reason refuted it long time ago.

You continue to believe in angels and flying horses, Noah's ark and creationism. Ignorance is bliss.

}SoC{Sumguy

as a rule, theology and physical science are to different feilds, and neither can be effectively applied to the other. one does not use God to explain the results of chemical reactions, therefore, one should not use physical science to explain their theological veiws.

neither can be proven by the other.

__________________
"And now you've seen his face,
and you know that there's a place
in the sun, for all that you've done.
For you and your children.
You always wanted to beleive.
Just ask and you'll receive,
beyond your wildest dreams.
And you already know how this will end...."