Abraham - Page 2

**The An-Jel** · 01-20-2007, 03:43 AM

I bet Abraham was one of those types of people that was trying to bring sense to the World. In essence the Universe, by uniting people, he might have had his own agenda but as I follow religion for all it's little rigors, he wanted to save people. I think they were smarter than any of us then. The Greeks were anyways. They tried... spread the word of peace... you have what you have. Myths and Legends. I will give it to the Ancient peoples, they tried a whole lot harder than any of us.

Lecter · 09-30-2007, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon

while all of Islam is decedant from Ishmael.

That's a misconception.

Arabs are descendants of Ishmael, some of the Arabs are Christians.

And about 85% of Muslims are non-Arab.

However you are right about the importance of Abraham.
The Qur'an says:

002.111
And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

and

002.135-136
They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

What the Qur'an is trying to convey to the reader is that both Christians and Jews say you have to follow their religion to be right, however Abraham was neither a Jew nor Christian, although both religions believe in him.

And that's why us and them should follow the religion of Abraham, which is to submit to God and have no partners with him.

Dunno · 12-23-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecter

What the Qur'an is trying to convey to the reader is that both Christians and Jews say you have to follow their religion to be right, however Abraham was neither a Jew nor Christian, although both religions believe in him.

Thats awesome, You have proved the Quran is wrong then. What I have read from the Bible is that God will Judge Xtians by Xtian values which are Jewish and all others will be Judge by God in his way. That is to say that the Jungle people who have never heard of God will be judge by whats written in their hearts or something like that

Lecter · 12-23-2007, 12:24 PM

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, could you please elaborate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunno

That is to say that the Jungle people who have never heard of God will be judge by whats written in their hearts or something like that

That was my point. The key to follow God isn't about being Jewish or Christian because like you've said, those who don't follow those religions will be judged otherwise.

Also the bible isn't clear about how people will be judged, because you'll find in it two opinions.

Salvation is by faith alone:

Rom.3:28
"A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Gal.2:16
"A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

Salvation is not by faith alone:

Jer.17:10
"I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Mt.19:17
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Dunno · 12-23-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecter

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, could you please elaborate?

If "I" understand this then Christians must understand this so Christians must not believe what the Quran says they do
I hope I put that right

to_hobbes · 12-30-2007, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon

I think it is really interesting how 3 of the world's largest relegions trace all the way back to one man. I also think it is interesting how each relegion views that time period differently. In reading Genesis of the Old Testament (which both Christians and Jews believe to be true) Abraham had a two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. All of Israel is decendant from Isaac while all of Islam is decedant from Ishmael. However, one very interesting place where the Bible is different from the Koran is that in Genesis, God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (eventhough God eventually spares Isaac's life). In the Koran, it is Ishmael that God commands Abraham to sacrifice.

I don't really have much of a point here. Obviously each side will claim that the other side got the story wrong or changed it somewhere in history to better suit themselves, I just find this piece of history intriguing. Whichever version of the story is true, Israel and Islam were once brothers.

I wonder why the big three religions are descendant from one man.

I think monotheism is one of the easiest philosophies to embrace. It is like an intermediate step between believing in many gods and believing in science instead of a god. Science tries to seek a mathematic explanation for fundamental the nature of the universe, where monotheism asserts that the fundamental nature of the universe is some unexplainable thing called "god".

Anyway, monotheism is easy to believe, so I'll bet anyone who thought it was a good idea and had also heard of Abraham decided to make their religion the same as Abraham, which is why Abrahamic religions dominate the world today.

marmalade · 12-30-2007, 08:37 PM

http://www.viewzone.com/abraham.html

This author theorizes that Abraham was based on Brahma. And Sarai was based on Saraswati. I don't know if its true, but I like the idea of it.

As for monotheism, it was thought up before the Israelites became monotheistic. Monotheistic tendencies can be found in many of the early cultures.

tommi atkins · 01-02-2008, 06:04 PM

[quote=Lecter;18396]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon

The Qur'an says:

002.111
And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

and

002.135-136
Then say! Nay, the Onus is on thou,for you hath presented a Ad ignorantiam theory.

.

Fixed for error

Lecter · 01-04-2008, 12:32 PM

tommi atkins, those verses are specifically addressing Jews and Christians. As in they already believe in God, prophets etc. So the verses posted are not there to proof all those things, since the people it is addressing already believe in those (Including prophet Abraham). There are other verses in the Qur'an talking to people that are neither Christian or Jews.

What the verses are simply saying, is that since both Jews and Christians believe in prophet Abraham and his religion and all, why are they saying one has to be Christian or Jewish in order to be right? Abraham was there before Christianity and Judaism, and the Qur'an is simply saying to them, follow the religion of Abraham and not religions that were created many years afterwards.

Again, those verses are only addressing Jews and Christians, so no need to prove to them things that we as Muslims and them already believe in.

[3:67] Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.

Hope that was helpful

tommi atkins · 01-04-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecter

[3:67] Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.

Hope that was helpful

Lect, I know you beleive Abraham was a muslim, and that Islam was the original religion and we cant prove that he diddnt pray facing mecca, or jerusalam, (non-existant as that city was in his day), and that he followed the 5 pillars. If that was the case then Islam would not be the newest of the 3 biggy religions and indeed Judism and christianity would be the newcomers and the usrpers.

I have made a dessert. I have made it with rice, sugar and milk and cinnomon, I have boiled it and allowed the rice to expand till it becomes sticky. im going to call it Sweet Rice soup. It's nice that Ambrosia, the makers of Rice pudding in 1888 AD, feel that they are the creators of my dish, but they have just been making a sullied version of mine. They have used nutmeg not cinnomen. Mine was always destined to be the true pudding, and they are greiviously mistaken and in manifest error. Now although I do not personally condone anyone becoming violent over this, I will not condem them in any meaningful way, and I can understand what drives them to such action.

You probably wont understand what im on about. I barely do myself, yet im still totally right.