Lecter

Well Christmas is around the corner so I thought I'd post this.

The Muslim Jesus

This is a documentary that was shown on British TV. It's about how Jesus is according to Islam.

Now this isn't a post about my book says this therefor it is right and yours is wrong, it's just so people who are interested in knowing how Islam views Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, might get a chance to learn about that.

There are people here who believe in neither of the two accounts about him, some only believe in the Christian version, and some of us believe in what is written in the Qur'an. But like I said this is really beside the point.

There are a lot of things I find amazing in this account of the story and if there's anything you want to discuss do so in this thread.

Enjoy

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

romansh

Hi Lecter .... thanks for this post/video

two thoughts
1) The similarities and different interpretations means at least one of the religions must be wrong? I could not help thinking that blind acceptance (at least in my mind) by both faiths certainly strenghened my agnosticism. I did not hear any truly questioning voices.

2) What really concerned me were the little children receiving their religious education (The Christian equivalent would be just as bad for me). My question is 'where would the children hear the passionate voice of agnosticism' so they can make up their minds before adulthood?

Or is this just a war of philosophies to reach our youngsters early as possible?

all the best

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Lecter

Thank you for watching it and responding

Well, duh!

Again this video wasn't supposed to prove one side right and the other wrong. But you are obviously right that either one of them is wrong or both are.

Why do you call it blind acceptance? Most of the Muslim speakers you heard talking weren't born Muslim. So they don't follow blindly whatever religion they were born into. Some of them were probably atheists. However something convinced them this religion was true and so they followed it.

Of course this video wasn't about that subject at all, nor is this thread about which religion is true, or why I claim my religion is true. I guess that belongs in another thread

That's probably why you didn't hear any questioning voices. It doesn't mean Muslims don't question what they are told, it just wasn't the right place to do so in that documentary, know what I mean?

After all the Qur'an criticizes those who are blind followers.

That's a very good point you bring up.

In my opinion however, I don't see anything wrong with bringing up your children to follow your religion, per se. You might ask, but why can't they know about agnosticism, a Hindu would demand they hear about Hinduism as well, and what about Judaism? See where I'm going with this?

These are just children, as long as we also bring them up as to learn how to think for themselves and to gain access to all kinds of knowledge and information, I'm pretty sure they'll make their own decisions once they grow up.

Plus you have to understand why we teach children these stories, it's not really about telling them this is the truth, full stop. It's rather about what we can teach children from these stories. Like we used to learn how Jesus Christ was humble and good to the poor, and how he was kind to his mother and so on. It's really about those morals and values we want to tell children about.

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

romansh

No, thank you, I was brought up on Britsh tele (translation TV) Though I thought it was heavily edited and the music was added to give the commentary a dramatic whoomph .... to give it a technical term.


I was actually thinking of the Christians when I said that, but now you come mention it. I found it curious they had to find a non-Brit (sounded American)to stand on a 'soap box' to (what laughably passes as for) debate with a Muslim at Hyde Park Corner. Were you convinced the debaters and the people listening and were open minded? Having said that I know I would not have been?

I agree with you .... If done well it is not a problem or at least should not be.
My own RE was a mixture of cultural indoctrination, and a mixture of the worst kind of dogma and enlightened examination of the Christianity. One of the most important things that I was taught was that the bible may have literal truths in it, but it should be treated as a very powerful metaphor. Just curious where do you stand on the Qur'an, is it a powerful metaphor, the literal truth, or a mixture. If a mixture more of which??? if you see what I mean?

Would you be OK with agnosticism being taught in a Muslim school?
I suppose I'm jealous; Catholicism is taught in catholic schools, Islam is taught in Muslim schools.... there are no doubt other religious schools. I just want an agnostic school for Christmas???

all the best

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

romansh

Point taken .....but while we wait for the crowds to turn up?

What I don't understand is people's passion for religion.

I don't doubt for a second that embedded in religions are eternal truths and that if we lived just by the big rules the world would be nicer place.

Whether the Jesus is the son of Mary or God or just a really good parable, why don't we follow love thy neighbour/enemy. That, to me, is the BIG message that should be taken away from the 'two' books. You said the Arab-Israeli conflict was political rather than religious... if it were religious would (should) there be a conflict? Similarly for the coalition of the decreasingly willing's 'intervention' in Iraq. It's the fine print that gets in the way.

just waxing lyrical


there's a certain irony here .... a devout agnostic discussing with a reasonable Muslim, the centre pin of Christianity ....Jesus

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Lecter

I don't know about being open minded but that debate, or rather what they showed of it was a total joke in my opinion. It was a debate over who can shout the loudest!

Having said that I must say I am familiar with both debaters and have seen a lot of videos of them on YouTube. I'll probably say this because I am Muslim, but I think they make very good arguments against that American debater who really has no grounds to stand on when he debates Muslims.

Again, I repeat, I am Muslim so you don't have to take my word for it, I can show you videos if you want and you can be the judge

Yeah I know what you mean. When the Qur'an wants to give you a parable it tells you so. However when it comes to telling the stories of the prophets and such, we do believe this to be the actual truth.

Absolutely!
Not only am I OK with it, I think it's an obligation to teach our youth about all other religions.
If one examines the Qur'an itself, which for Muslims is the holiest text, one finds it talks about other point of views. Like you find verses that start with 'The Jews say...', 'The Christians say...' and 'Those who reject faith say...' and so on. So we learn about they or the others a lot in the Qur'an, that's why I think we should teach about the others in schools.

Again that said, the Qur'an of course provides arguments against their claims and calls these point of views wrong, but still both sides are written in there for the reader to examine and to form their own opinion about the matter.

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

Lecter

Those are very wise words that I wish more people would realize. What we have to accept is that no matter what happens there are always going to be people out there that don't believe in what we believe in. And I don't mean we should only look at what we have in common, we should acknowledge the differences we have and that we're going to disagree on a lot of things. I am saying we should learn to live together despite those disagreements. So I agree with you 100% there, well said.

There's a famous saying of Muhammad, peace be upon him, that he said upon entering Al Madinah, he said:

“O’ people, spread peace among yourselves, feed the poor, keep the kinship ties, and pray at night while people are sleeping, so that you may enter paradise serenely.”

Notice how 3/4 of that message deals with relations between human beings.

Hehe That's true.

Don't forget though, that from our point of view Jesus had the same religion as Moses and all the other prophets of God, peace be upon all of them.

I guess what this thread needs is a Christian so that they can share with us their point of view. The discussion would get much more interesting.

Not that it's not interesting right now!

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

romansh

Hi Lecter

thanks for your reply
If it's not too onerous cold you supply the relevant passages from the Qur'an regarding those that have no faith? My Arabic is a little rusty so if you could Supply the English version? Thanks

I think I know what you mean... our differences are our strength or our weakness; our choice.

Taking the second half of the saying metaphorically I agree with this statement completely. I just wish I was better at it.

thanks again

Lecter

Sure no problem

There a lot of passages regarding what they say, I made a quick search and here are some verses.

(By the way, the translation disbelievers/those who reject faith/infidels isn't quite the best translation for the word kafir/kuffar/kafirun, but that's beside the point here)

"And they say: O you to whom the Reminder has been revealed! you are most surely insane" [15:6]

"And those who disbelieve say: This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it; so indeed they have done injustice and (uttered) a falsehood.

And they say: The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.

Say: He has revealed it Who knows the secret in the heavens and the earth; surely He is ever Forgiving, Merciful." [25:4-6]

"And he makes comparisons for Us, and forgets his own (origin and) Creation: He says, "Who can give life to (dry) bones and decomposed ones (at that)?"

Say, "He will give them life Who created them for the first time! for He is Well-versed in every kind of creation!-

"The same Who produces for you fire out of the green tree, when behold! ye kindle therewith (your own fires)!

Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like thereof?" - Yea, indeed! for He is the Creator Supreme, of skill and knowledge (infinite)! "[36:78:81]


There are much more examples but I don't want to fill the thread with verses from the Qur'an. So I hope that gives you an idea about what I was talking about. We as Muslims say that Muhammad was telling the truth, but as you see the Qur'an mentions also the point of view of non Muslims who say Muhammad was either a liar, and maybe had people helping him write the Qur'an, or he was a madman who wasn't lying but actually believed he was a prophet.

Oh and here are some verses regarding Jews and Christians:

And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.[2:111]

And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.[2:113]

Hope that was helpful

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

romansh

Thanks Lecter for taking the time.

I'm not sure how to interpret these lines (sayings) not having the context etc. What is the interpretation I should take away?

On a slightly topic would kafir be considered a derogatory word in Arabic
I won't take any offense ...

thanks .... all the best

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams