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Old 10-26-2007, 03:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
with jesus
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Default Islam religion of blood

I am extremely confused regarding the methods of Islamic spread at its beginning, as every Muslim I know tells me that Islam spread through peace, wisdom and love yet all the history books I have read both western and eastern say other wise so.
-You people say that Muhammad didn’t like the spilling of blood then why do I read in history books that he led 27 battles in which 9 of them he fought him self or so say some of the Arabic history books I have read? Is it possible to fight in 9 battles and not kill one man and hate violence?
-I don’t understand how you people say that Islam is such a peaceful religion and your prophet who is every Muslim's idol fought 27 battles in less then 12 years. Please explain this to me I find my self in a dark room surrounded by voices that I can't understand!
-Did he or did he not order the complete annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe in Medina that had a population of 700 men who were slaughtered like sheep in one day?
- Did he or did he not send over 60 raids after appointing one of his followers to raid and pillage from other none Muslim tribes?
-Why did Muhammad fight only the Christian orthodox Roman Byzantines and not fight against the heretic Persians who were Zoroastrians?

That’s all I have to ask regarding Mohammad now I would like to ask about those who came after him the 4 caliphates (some books say that there were 5 caliphates others say 4 as I am not certain about this I hope you excuse my deficit in historical knowledge) :

-Wasn’t it the caliphates top priority to recruit armies and send them to rage wars on Persia and the Byzantines?
-isn't General Khalid ibn al-Walid considered one of the brightest Islamic idols? Considering that he engaged over 50 battles and never lost making him one of the most ruthless killers of all time.
-didn’t the Muslims fight in numerous battles after Mohammed's death such as the yarmouk and al-Qādisiyyah epic battles resulting in over 200 thousand casualties of troops only not to mansion countless enslavements? In which they conquered all the lands from Morocco west to Pakistan east and Georgia north to Sudan south?

-Why do you Muslims consider what the holy crusaders did to the Muslims in Jerusalem when they first entered city at 1099 A.D an evil massacre, When the Muslims had killed far more Christians in their self raised battles?
-how many Hindus did Muslims kill in India?
Another frontier I would like to discuses;
Why do you Muslims claim that you are the origin of all modern science, when the short Islamic scientific revolution had begun after translation of Greek, roman and ancient Asian scrolls into Arabic for your brightest to study and develop? It was pretty much you feeding on the knowledge of the nations you had conquered and built over it which was mostly Greek philosophy and roman science.
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Old 10-26-2007, 03:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Who are
'you people'?

And of course Christianity has no violence in its past......right?
And how many Muslims have you actually talked to? I have a hard time believing that.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna View Post
Who are
'you people'?

And of course Christianity has no violence in its past......right?
And how many Muslims have you actually talked to? I have a hard time believing that.
Would it be so hard to elaborate on the matters I have brought up? There my be violence in Christianity but at least the origin of our faith has none of it. As Jesus Christ never killed any one or sent any one to war! On the other hand Muhammad was a killer from his first day on the job!
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We were enclosed,
O eternal Father,
within the garden of your breast.
You drew us out of your holy mind
like a flower
petaled with our soul's three powers,
and into each power
you put the whole plant,
so that they might bear fruit in your garden,
might come back to you
with the fruit you gave them.
And you would come back to the soul,
to fill her with your blessedness.
There the soul dwells --
like the fish in the sea
and the sea in the fish.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I am not Muslim but Satanist. So I can't really answer your questions with enough authority.

And I have a feeling you wouldn't really listen but just wait to respond with your anti Muslim words.
Sorry, this has been done to death here.
Thank you and come again
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Old 10-27-2007, 03:09 AM   #5 (permalink)
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:lock:

My vote.
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Old 10-27-2007, 06:27 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Perhaps such a discussion happened before but was it based on facts and truth? Those events I stated happened and Muslims know they did, but then they clam their faith of a peaceful loving nature. The truth from my experience simply is most Muslims are prejudice and intolerant.
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We were enclosed,
O eternal Father,
within the garden of your breast.
You drew us out of your holy mind
like a flower
petaled with our soul's three powers,
and into each power
you put the whole plant,
so that they might bear fruit in your garden,
might come back to you
with the fruit you gave them.
And you would come back to the soul,
to fill her with your blessedness.
There the soul dwells --
like the fish in the sea
and the sea in the fish.
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Old 10-27-2007, 10:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by with jesus View Post
The truth from my experience simply is most Muslims are prejudice and intolerant.

That's all I got.
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Old 10-28-2007, 12:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Hello with Jesus

You ask some very important questions that I'm going to try to answer to the best of my ability. However I must say I'm confused since you say you've read books about the subject. you claim the following:

Quote:
Perhaps such a discussion happened before but was it based on facts and truth?
You mention facts and truth but in your post say things that are simply not true. Not even Western books about Islam say some of the things you say, and trust me I've read books written by non Muslims.

For example you say:

Quote:
On the other hand Muhammad was a killer from his first day on the job!
This is simply not true.

Muslims did not start fighting back until 13 years of persecution. 13 years they lived in Mecca suffering mockery, humiliation, oppression, torture and even murder. They were suffering so bad Muhammad told Muslims to go to Ethiopia where a just Christian king lived, that would protect them from the Pagan Arabs, and so he did.

Muslims then had to leave their homes and go to Yathreb (called Al Madina Al Monawara later) and have the Pagan Arabs take over all their property and homes. Even Muhammad himself had to leave when the Pagan Arabs were planning to kill him.

Now are you blaming Muslims for fighting back their oppressors?

Again, remember this lasted for 13 years, and not a single Muslim would fight back. Jesus Christ himself, peace be upon him, only spent 3 years preaching.

Now why was permission to fight given to Muslims? If you want to know simply read the first verses revealed about that subject, here it is:

*{Permission is granted to those who are being persecuted, since injustice has befallen them, and God is certainly able to support them. They were evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, "Our Lord is God." If it were not for God's supporting of some people against others, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and masjids [mosques] - where the name of God is commemorated frequently - would have been destroyed. Absolutely, God supports those who support Him. God is Powerful, Almighty.}*[22:39-40]

So we as Muslims have the permission to fight against persecution. We are also told to fight to protect the weak and the oppressed.

And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" [4:75]

Quote:
Is it possible to fight in 9 battles and not kill one man and hate violence?
Violence in Islam and war are hated.

"Fighting is prescribed for you and it is hateful to you."[2:216]

However sitting there not doing anything when people are hurt and suffering is far worse the fighting. However if the persecution stops, then the fighting should also stop.

The Qur'an says:

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.[8:39]

and later in the same Surah...

And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

So if our enemies want peace then we must cease to fight and seek peace. However if people are being persecuted then we must fight until it is stopped. How is that not fair and just?

There's a difference between being peaceful and passive. Being passive is evil, especially when your fellow man is being hurt and you do nothing about it.

Quote:
Did he or did he not order the complete annihilation of an entire Jewish tribe in Medina that had a population of 700 men who were slaughtered like sheep in one day?
Again this is not true. You imply the whole tribe was killed and that they were killed because they were Jews.

First, women and children were not killed, because that is forbidden in Islam.
Second Muhammad did not order to kill them, they were judged by a man and were sentenced to death.

Now why were they killed?

When Muhammad was chosen as the leader of Al Madina a constitution was written and Muslims, non-Muslims and the Jews agreed to protect each other against any outside enemy. It was the first time that a bond was made that was superior to the bond of race, clan and blood.

Actually in that constitution the rights of the Jews were protected, I'll show you these rules if you want later.

Anyways what happened was that the Pagan Arabs were attacking the Muslims, and the city was under siege. One of the Jewish tribes that lived inside the city tried to help the Pagan Arabs and grant them entry from behind inside the city so they can kill the Muslims.

When Muslims found this out they put them under trial and they were sentenced to death for treason. They didn't even resist because they understood what they have done was something great.

However the other Jewish tribes living inside the city were not harmed and lived peacefully amongst the Muslims. This punishment was against their act, and not their religion.

I want you to look up the conquest of Mecca and see what Muslims did to their enemies when they took Mecca back. I'm talking about those Pagan Arabs who were torturing and killing Muslims for so long, do you know what Muhammad did to them when Muslims finally won and there was no threat coming from them anymore? Do you know what he said to them?


He said:

"I speak to you in the same words as Joseph spoke to his brothers. This day there is no reproof against you; Go your way, for you are free."

He pardoned his enemies that not too long ago were killing Muslims, but since there was no point in killing them they were all forgiven and set free. Can you honestly tell me such a man is a man who likes violence? Or is he a man who loved peace and justice?

Do not confuse the action of some with the rules we have in our religion, Islam is the only religion that has rules on how to treat people of other religions because we accept there are always gonna be people who don't follow our religion. the Qur'an is the only holy book that tells us how to deal with them.

It says:

It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
[60:7-8]


I hope I answered your questions.

If you want me to elaborate on anything I said, just tell me so
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Old 10-28-2007, 01:58 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by with jesus View Post
Would it be so hard to elaborate on the matters I have brought up? There my be violence in Christianity but at least the origin of our faith has none of it. As Jesus Christ never killed any one or sent any one to war! On the other hand Muhammad was a killer from his first day on the job!
Dear with jesus

From what I have seen of Christians the more devout they are they less tolerant they become? Would you agree?

Regarding the New Testament I would agree Jesus was a tolerant person with the possible exception of the merchants in the synagogue. But Christianity embraces the Old Testament aswell, which to me seems quite vindictive. For example I would be interested in your interpretation of Deuteronomy 21: 10 to 14? Of course there could be a problem with the King James version?

When Jesus was asked, which was greatest of the commandments, what was his answer?

I don't get a sense from your posts that you are turning your other cheek?

all the best
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Old 10-28-2007, 05:19 PM   #10 (permalink)
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[quote=romansh;19172]
Quote:
Originally Posted by with jesus View Post
When Jesus was asked, which was greatest of the commandments, what was his answer?
Matthew 22:36
"Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment.
The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."
So the greatest of the commandments would be complete devotion to god the father. The second would be loving your enemies and neighbors alike.





Quote:
Originally Posted by romansh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by with jesus View Post
Would it be so hard to elaborate on the matters I have brought up? There my be violence in Christianity but at least the origin of our faith has none of it. As Jesus Christ never killed any one or sent any one to war! On the other hand Muhammad was a killer from his first day on the job!
Dear with jesus

From what I have seen of Christians the more devout they are they less tolerant they become? Would you agree?

Regarding the New Testament I would agree Jesus was a tolerant person with the possible exception of the merchants in the synagogue. But Christianity embraces the Old Testament aswell, which to me seems quite vindictive. For example I would be interested in your interpretation of Deuteronomy 21: 10 to 14? Of course there could be a problem with the King James version?


I don't get a sense from your posts that you are turning your other cheek?
all the best
As for your first question, I don’t quite understand what purpose it serves. Please explain to me and I will do my best answering it.
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We were enclosed,
O eternal Father,
within the garden of your breast.
You drew us out of your holy mind
like a flower
petaled with our soul's three powers,
and into each power
you put the whole plant,
so that they might bear fruit in your garden,
might come back to you
with the fruit you gave them.
And you would come back to the soul,
to fill her with your blessedness.
There the soul dwells --
like the fish in the sea
and the sea in the fish.
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