Lecter

AL-IKHLAS (SINCERITY)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp-6ofzUuVI

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

The above should be sufficient to answer your question, but I'll show you where it says the same thing in your text

Though you have to remember, I already answered your question about God having a son.

Sure, no problem.

Means: And do not say anything about God except the truth

Means: But the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary is the messenger of God.

So it's saying that Jesus Christ, peace be upon him is the messenger of God.
Plus Jesus is called the son of Mary, and not the son of God.

No, it means that the statement of truth is that Jesus Christ the son of Mary is the Messenger of God, that's what's only the truth.

As in the statement about Jesus being a messenger is the truth, get it?

Also I noticed that you have translated the verses wrong, can I ask you about your source?

For example you said that 2:117 means:
Which means: The originator of the heavens and the earth, and when he decrees a matter, he but says to it BE, and it is.

Your source has inserted the word "Word" in the above verse while it's not there. Word in Arabic means "Kalima" and it's no where to be found in the verse. So your source is obviously lying or trying to deceive you.

I'm reading straight from the Qur'anby the way, but I can give you sites that have different translations if you want.

I hope this time things get more clear for you, though I know I made along reply so if there's still something bothering you, just let me know.

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

Apple Pie

Both verbs used in 112.3 (i.e. يلد & يولد ), are each in the imperfect tense.

This clearly is referring to incomplete action.

It is not referring to completed action.

This statement is only telling us that there will be no more children (i.e. Son’s) of “allah”, from here on out.

Sura 112 never once denies that “allah” had a Son in the past.

And…

Sure enough, 4.171 confirms that he did indeed have a Son.






Where...?



Not quite…

You just completely ignored the pivotal term “illa”…

يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله


إلا = “illa”

“illa” definition:

Regarded as a simple word. If not; unless; except; some; otherwise; less; but; and; also. This word is used to signify the sense of exception. This exception is of two kinds: 1) Exception in which the thing excepted belongs to the same class or species to which the things from which an exception is sought to be made, belongs. 2) Exception in which the excepted thing belongs to a different class or species. It commonly governs the accusative. It also means not even.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 76 - 78
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 27

As you can verify for yourself, “illa” is telling us of an exception (i.e. The Truth) which is only “innama” Jesus Christ.

Not “allah”.

Here, in 4.171, we have the term “illa” placing Jesus Christ in a class by Himself…

This was already covered at length in a prior post.








Again…

“innama” precedes Jesus Christ, and tells us that only He is The Truth; and then the text goes on to list further attributes of Jesus Christ…





Actually, Jesus is called both.

Observe that the authors of the Koran understood that Jesus had no earthly father, thus He is always referred to as being the Son of His earthly mother, Mary.

However, 4.171 clearly states that He also has a Father.


Observe…

يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and certainly they say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly his what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.


Not "her" Son.

His "Son".


The evidence is unimpeachable…



That’s not what the classic Arabic tells us…





We use the world’s best Classic Arabic lexicography, and concordances, to perform an exegesis.

What do you use?






Let’s look…


بديع السموت والأرض وإذا قضى أمرا فإنما
يقول له كن فيكون

BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

2.117 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: "Be thou." so (it) is.



The highlighted section is the primary definition from the classic Arabic lexicons.

Looks like this is yet another area that Islam has forgotten…








Reading straight from the Koran and attempting to interpret it using modern Arabic and the Islamic mindset, is a recipe for disaster….

Apple Pie

Both verbs used in 112.3 (i.e. يلد & يولد ), are each in the imperfect tense.

This clearly is referring to incomplete action.

It is not referring to completed action.

This statement is only telling us that there will be no more children (i.e. Son’s) of “allah”, from here on out.

Sura 112 never once denies that “allah” had a Son in the past.

And…

Sure enough, 4.171 confirms that he did indeed have a Son.






Where...?



Not quite…

You just completely ignored the pivotal term “illa”…

يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله


إلا = “illa”

“illa” definition:

Regarded as a simple word. If not; unless; except; some; otherwise; less; but; and; also. This word is used to signify the sense of exception. This exception is of two kinds: 1) Exception in which the thing excepted belongs to the same class or species to which the things from which an exception is sought to be made, belongs. 2) Exception in which the excepted thing belongs to a different class or species. It commonly governs the accusative. It also means not even.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 76 - 78
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 27

As you can verify for yourself, “illa” is telling us of an exception (i.e. The Truth) which is only “innama” Jesus Christ.

Not “allah”.

Here, in 4.171, we have the term “illa” placing Jesus Christ in a class by Himself…

This was already covered at length in a prior post.








Again…

“innama” precedes Jesus Christ, and tells us that only He is The Truth; and then the text goes on to list further attributes of Jesus Christ…





Actually, Jesus is called both.

Observe that the authors of the Koran understood that Jesus had no earthly father, thus He is always referred to as being the Son of His earthly mother, Mary.

However, 4.171 clearly states that He also has a Father.


Observe…

يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and certainly they say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly his what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.


Not "her" Son.

His "Son".


The evidence is unimpeachable…



That’s not what the classic Arabic tells us…





We use the world’s best Classic Arabic lexicography, and concordances, to perform an exegesis.

What do you use?






Let’s look…


بديع السموت والأرض وإذا قضى أمرا فإنما
يقول له كن فيكون

BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

2.117 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: "Be thou." so (it) is.



The highlighted section is the primary definition from the classic Arabic lexicons.

Looks like this is yet another area that Islam has forgotten…








Reading straight from the Koran and attempting to interpret it using modern Arabic and the Islamic mindset, is a recipe for disaster….

Geshtinnanna

It's the grammar wars oh no. Let's make this easy or you could be arguing the word the for a millenium...which usually means that you have lost your argument but just won't admit it. Show me word for word JESUS CREATED THE UNIVERSE.
Go.

Oh let me add my other questions:
Are you a Muslim? If not, are you aware you are actually debating a Msulim belief with an actual Muslim and wouldn't you take his word for it that Islam does not believe that Jesus created the universe? Seems kind of odd to argue someone's belief with that actual member of that religion. You'd think Lecter would know the basic beliefs of his own religion.

__________________

Apple Pie

You sound upset...

Should we take this as you cannot rebut anything that has already been stated....yes?



No.


This thread is about what the Koran states on the matter.

Not what Muslims or Islam states regarding the matter.




But...not what his book of faith states...obviously...

Geshtinnanna

Not upset. Annoyed. I have been in debates long enough to know when they get into the etymology of words etc, it's a lost cause. It gets boring rather quickly.

I have asked for the very direct sentence of JESUS CREATED THE UNIVERSE. Not your mis informed opinion of taking a word out of the original context. I decided to look at the passages you quoted, found that I understood it once I read it in context. I have also noted people with an agenda will find any word in any book to fit their belief regardless if it's true or not. Nowhere in the Koran does it state JESUS CREATED THE UNIVERSE. I don't need to be a Muslim to know that. I just have to have some sort of clue. And when I was in doubt I simply asked a Muslim: So does your faith believe in Jesus creating the universe? I got a big fat easy to understand explanation of NO we do not. I think I will take the word of a practicing person of that faith on that religion.
Oh ok. Just curious as to where you are coming from. You do speak and read Arabic though, correct? I mean since you quoted it in Arabic I assume you can read what you quoted? I ask because since I don't I go to Lecter since it's his native language and he can explain things to me clearly. I don't rely on google. Not that you do. I just wanted you to know I am getting my information and education from an actual practicing and fundamentalist Muslim.

Well you can't be able to one, produce to me directly the sentence from the Koran that backs up your claim that JESUS CREATED THE UNIVERSE. And two,you seem to have the ability to read something that isn't there. And three, Islam does not believe Jesus created the universe. And their book of faith does no either. So stop side tracking and produce the words from the Koran (not what you think it says, not what you interpret it to say but the words JESUS CREATED THE UNIVERSE. Until then I will stop responding and just read as to not distract you from your claim about a belief of a religion you are not even a member of. Because apparently all the other Muslims of the world are wrong about their own faith when they say Jesus did not create the universe. Who knew you, of all people in the known universe in all the ages could show them, the actualy Islamics the error of their own belief......obviously.

__________________

Lecter

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
[9:30-31]

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

Geshtinnanna

Apple, I was trying to figure out why I knew your name. We belong to the same forum. The Free Jesus Forum. I've seen you post this same stuff over there. You could at least be a little honest of your agenda. shame on you

__________________

Lecter

I think you are wrong Apple Pie, the term "Lam Yaled" means he did not beget, which is referring to the past. If you don't believe me ask anyone who speaks Arabic. Trust me I'm telling you the truth.

? I said: And do not say anything about God EXCEPT the truth

It even says so in the definition you posted... I'm confused?

the text says, innama Jesus Christ the son of Mary is the messenger of God.
innama=but/however .. etc

Means:

Allah is one god, glorified be he that he should have a son

so it is clearly stating that God does NOT have a son... your translation is simply wrong, you have been deceived. Check the any translation on the web, it says the same thing I'm saying.

Qada means to determine or to decreed. Trust me on this, WORD is not in that verse, they have been lying to you.

Now I'm asking you, if you truly love Christ, please seek the truth and stay away from lies. The translation is wrong, you are being deceived.

Hope you understand that I'm not talking about whether Jesus is the son of god or not, you can believe what you want. All i'm saying is that this is NOT what the Qur'an is saying. Hope I didn't offend you.

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

wais shirzai

2.116 And they said: " “allah” he has taken (a) Son, glory be to Him, much more certainly His, that which (is) in the heavens and the earth, all are certainly obedient unto Him.”

God Never Refers to Jesus it says Glory be to him much more certainly his, that which is in the Heavens and the earth, all are certainly obedient unto him.

God Almighty Says to the Human beings that Glory be to him refers to his self not Jesus ....

2.117 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so certainly only Him, He says: "Be thou." so (it) is.

Again Refers to himself , That when he says to be thou so it is.

6.101 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth, that He has certainly been his Son, and certainly not to be his companion, and He created every thing that He will, and He on account of every thing that he will who knows.



Thus…the authors give full credit to the Son, Jesus Christ, for the creation of the Universe.

Just as stated in the Holy Bible.

Surah Al-An'am ch:6 verse:101

بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
BadeeAAu alssamawati waalardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shayin wahuwa bikulli shayin AAaleemun

Translation:
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

Verse 100

Yet they make the Jinns equals with Allah, though Allah did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!

Let me Quote the Verse what Apple pie Quoted
Ch:2 versE:116
وَقَالُواْ اتَّخَذَ اللّهُ وَلَدًا سُبْحَانَهُ بَل لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ كُلٌّ لَّهُ قَانِتُونَ

Waqaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawati waalardi kullun lahu qanitoona

They say: "(Allah) hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.

Ch:2 verse:117

بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَإِذَا قَضَى أَمْراً فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ
BadeeAAu alssamawati waalardi waitha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.


ch:6 verse:101

بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
BadeeAAu alssamawati waalardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shayin wahuwa bikulli shayin AAaleemun

Translation:
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

Do not attempt such things when You are not aware of anything.