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Old 09-26-2007, 02:42 PM   #11 (permalink)
Apple Pie
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Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna View Post
No he explained it well. You should read that section in context. The THEY in all the sentences is referring to non Muslim and then the responses start with WE which show how THEY are incorrect. You need to read it from the top to understand the context. But that's ok. It is hard to show someone they are mistaken in how they are reading a passage. So I will skip it. Have a nice day
Since neither you nor your boyfriend understand classic Arabic; how exactly can you demonstrate anything other than what you are able to google from the web...?
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Old 09-26-2007, 02:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Actually his first language is Arabic and he's been reading and studying it since before school. He also is Egyptian and lives in Egypt as a practicing Muslim. I listen to him as opposed to googling.
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Old 09-26-2007, 03:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Actually his first language is Arabic and he's been reading and studying it since before school. He also is Egyptian and lives in Egypt as a practicing Muslim. I listen to him as opposed to googling.
Perhaps he could assist you in identifying the words ..."far is it removed from his transcendent majesty"...from your popular English rendering....yes?
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Old 09-26-2007, 04:34 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Actually his first language is Arabic and he's been reading and studying it since before school. He also is Egyptian and lives in Egypt as a practicing Muslim. I listen to him as opposed to googling.
Perhaps he could assist you in identifying the words ..."far is it removed from his transcendent majesty"...from your popular English rendering....yes?
He will be joining us shortly. Time difference and stuff.
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Old 09-26-2007, 04:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna View Post
Actually his first language is Arabic and he's been reading and studying it since before school. He also is Egyptian and lives in Egypt as a practicing Muslim. I listen to him as opposed to googling.
Perhaps he could assist you in identifying the words ..."far is it removed from his transcendent majesty"...from your popular English rendering....yes?
He will be joining us shortly. Time difference and stuff.

We are looking forward to it....
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Upon reviewing your posts I have noticed your continual use of the word only. In face you bold it. Again how can you question the Arabic use of the word yet continue to use it as a basis for your belief? And do you originally speak Arabic?
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I think I'm misunderstanding what you want to say.

The verses you quoted say that "they" say that god has a son, but then it says glorified be he, as in it is not befitting god to have a son because to him (i.e god) belongs everything that is in the world.

Anyways if you are confused or you think the verses aren't clear, maybe you should read other verses in the Qur'an that do mention Jesus. Actually I'll show you what Jesus says about himself, according to the Qur'an of course:

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; 19:30

I hope those verses made things more clear for you.

If you still have any questions regarding this, ask away
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:13 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I also think you should remind him this is not translated verses. You are reading this from the original language.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:31 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna View Post
Upon reviewing your posts I have noticed your continual use of the word only. In face you bold it. Again how can you question the Arabic use of the word yet continue to use it as a basis for your belief? And do you originally speak Arabic?

Good observation…

The reason for this is due to the usage of the word “innama”, as thus…



بديع السموت والأرض وإذا قضى أمرا فإنما
يقول له كن فيكون


BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

2.117 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: "Be thou." so (it) is.




And again here…


يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا


Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and certainly they say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his son, truly his what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.



The classic meaning behind the word…



إنما = “innama”

“innama” definition:

According to the grammarians, it is a compound of “inna” and “ma”, which latter prevents the former’s having any government: it imports restriction: it imports the restriction of that which it precedes to that which follows it. In other words, it is used to particularize, or specify, or distinguish a thing from other things: it affirms a thing in relation to that which is mentioned after it, and denies it in relation to other things. Some say that it does not import restriction, but only corroboration of an affirmation, because it is a compound of the corroborative “inna” and the redundant “ma” which restrains the former from exercising government, and that it has no application to denote negation implied in restriction. It therefore seems that it is susceptible of both these meanings, bearing one or the other according as this or that suits the place. Rendered as “only”, verily.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 103 – 111; 118
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 285
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 35
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 11



The classic definition quite clearly states that “innama” affirms a thing in relation to that which is mentioned after it.

Thus, in 4.171, “alhaqqi” (i.e. The Truth), is the “thing” that is being related to Jesus – which is mentioned after it.

Hence, “The Truth is ONLY Jesus Christ”.

Not “allah”.


Likewise, 2.117 mandates that the creation of the heavens and the earth are “qada” (i.e. He finished a thing entirely by Word) is to apply ONLY to the Son, which is the subject of this creation ayah.

Looks like the Koranic “allah” requires assistance in creating the heavens and the earth.
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Old 09-26-2007, 08:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I think I'm misunderstanding what you want to say.

The verses you quoted say that "they" say that god has a son, but then it says glorified be he, as in it is not befitting god to have a son because to him (i.e god) belongs everything that is in the world.
Let's concentrate on the ayahs already presented.

Please show us the Arabic denial of Jesus' being the Son in 4.171...

Thanks...
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