Gettin' In Tune

Thanks for your reply.

IMO, it boils down to simplicity.

1. What is “god”?
a. First define “god”
b. What is your belief in “god:
i. Absolute
ii. Relative

When you claim knowledge you “own the burden of proof”. Belief systems are just….”beliefs”…and “systems”. Belief systems need to be shared and cultivated not absolutely imposed upon.

I find deism and agnosticism middle grounds; transcendental of labels. I have been to theist and atheist site and sometimes they are so caught up in their absolutism that they label you without your permission. Labels prevent you from true cultivation.

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"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

Skepticologist

I certainly didn't mean to disparage your beliefs. If you've considered it deeply and it still makes logical sense to you, I'll be the last to tell you any particular belief is irelevant.

With regard to theism, I was an adherent at one time in my development. I've read Emerson and Thoreau extensively, and theism certainly requires me to accept far fewer inconsistencies than Christianity.

Still, it requires belief in a god, albeit one who is much more detached from humanity. For that specific reason I had to part ways with theism since, much as I was attracted to it, I had not discovered any compelling evidence for or against the existence of a supreme being.

It's difficult for me to understand how someone can be both a theist and an agnostic, but if it works for, and makes sense to, you then my understanding is not all that important.`

Gettin' In Tune

I hope you do not equate deism with theism, but deism with atheism. You give me a good reason why we are having this intelligent debate and I will disinegrate. But you can't.

Give me a diety and I will destroy it, but I will first try to cultivate it. I will always question it no matter how much I build it. It is up to the deist to develop god...who else do you have left?

We cultivate "god" for destruction by atheist and agnostics mock us. Deism requires a loose mind and a pure heart.

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"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan

Probability_Amplitude

I suppose that has some truth in it, but the "leap" is (in my opinion) small. Based on the proofs (and refutations of) which I've studied, I've come to a conclusion that God may exist and I have no problem in making that "leap of faith" and simply believing in him. Maybe it's do with my upbringing, I dunno. *shrugs*

Skepticologist

First of all, welcome. I hope you enjoy the forum as much as I have in the month or so I've been a member. There are a lot of obviously very intelligent and well educated members, and you will be challenged, which I believe is the most valuable aspect of my participation. Not that it doesn't feel good to have people agree with you, but there's little growth potential in that. And most of the people here who challenge you will do so intellectually without deprecating your viewpoints.

While I take no real exception to your viewpoint on the existence of god, for me personally, I'd need something more substantive that an acknowledgement of the potential of the existence of god in order to embrace the belief that he/she/it exists. I will admit, however, to having some lingering misgivings regarding the creation of the universe. I keep asking the question, "Where did that come from?", whether the subject is a primordial soup or the elements that went into the big bang. In other words, I still find it difficult to conceive of the possibilty that everything I see around me and in the space above me just simply appeared out of nothing with no causatory agent.

So my mind is still open to the concept of intelligent design, though not as a vehicle for religious zealots to gain a foothold for having their clearly non-scientific beliefs taught in public school science classes.

In the foregoing sense, I'd agree with you that moving from the point of being open to the possibility that god exists to the point of believing that some superior intellect or being exists would require a relatively small leap of faith.

What takes a much larger leap of faith, and a much more profound suspension of logic and reason, is embracing the tenets or any of the major world religions. Taking the christian example, I can understand being moved by the wonders of the universe to the extent that I might tend to believe that god exists; but certainly not a god who's purported to have created the universe in the space of six days.

However, without some sort of mythology, which is what I consider all religions to be, I'm not sure what I would do with such a simple belief in god. From a functional standpoint, I can't envision taking such a relatively small leap as making all that much of a difference in how I go about daily living.

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"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

Probability_Amplitude

Yeah mate, I agree that it takes a significantly larger leap of faith to accept the tenants of major religions. My point was simply that to base all our decisions and beliefs on pure rationalism is is just another form of fundamentalism.

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I am free, at last.