Johnathan

I guess you are with the other 99.9% of evolutionists. Honestly, you call me a liar and a deciever because I chose to walk away from evolution? Perhaps you don't realise just how many people are turning from it day by day, I just so happen to be one of the ones who realise it's a fraud, and now I get the same BS I get from all other evolutionists, here. I did honestly believe you guys were different, but your not at all. What is this, acting like the nice guys at first, pretending to be different than all the rest. How can you call yourself open minded, you will never be different and I see that now, and no one else is allowed to be. You can never find a truely open minded evolutionist. Well, you can believe what you want, but I don't care really. In all honesty, it doesn't matter at all, because all you have proven is that you are no different, and I am glad I left your circle. Evolution is exactly what evolutionists claim christianity to be, a cult, a religion. Even Darwin called it that himself, he was actually disapointed that everyone took his "unformed ideas" as he called them, and immediately declared it truth. You really should look at how many evolutionists have become creationists, and how many atheists are now christians, then perhaps you will realise I am not the first. Or perhaps they are all liars and were all christians before? I really hope I do find somewhere an open minded evolutionist who doesn't call everyone liars and fools because they turned away from their theory. This is a person I could actually talk to, and perhaps show the other side to without the same BS response.

Armel P

This is laughable. I will say only one more thing: I just went on Amazon.com and found a collection of four books by Darwin dealing with his theory. Total number of pages: 1706. Seems like conviction to me.

__________________
Aspiring Memetic Engineer

lauraclay

Evolution is not a close door to the mind. If the 'believer' of evolution chooses to be close-minded, then that is a personal flaw. Evolution is science, and as with most theories of science that are newly formed, ever-changing. The theory of evolution is not yet perfected simply because scientists have not had a chance to perfect it yet. Collecting data and finalizing theories takes time. Perfect theories are not born overnight. Fanatics are.

If you think the idea of the world beginning in chaos started with the Greeks, you are wrong. This idea is the basis for nearly ever single story of creation for every culture. If you'd like me to show you some, I'd love to. I love myths, especially creation myths, and have read several. If you like interesting reads, they're really fun to read, and informational, all at once. Also, if you're looking for evolutionary ideas beginning in religion, check out Hinduism, Buddhism, and many Indian myths. I can help you here too. I love this stuff.

I would not call myself an evolutionist, as I am a high school senior and have not studied evolution in depth. To do so would take time, effort, and an intense background in science that I do not have. However, I lean towards it. I think anyone who declares any religion as an entirety a blind faith is as ignorant as a person who doesn't know anything about evolution but steadfastly holds to it. You don't have to be one or the other. There is no line between Christianity and evolution. There is a grey area. I am proud to sit right in the middle, in the grey area, soaking up the benefits of both.

A reason we don't know a lot about evolution is that we have not discovered it yet. Many scientist are impatient, poor, greedy, and starved for fame and look for the easy way out. But do not many religious zealots do the same? How do you explain the many sects of Christianity? The evangelists with differing points of view? The corruption in the Church? Christianity is as fallible as evolution.

Look at textbooks from a manufacturer's and school board's point of view. If the theory of evolution was updated in the textbooks every time a change was made, the costs would skyrocket. People would have to replace their textbooks annually, maybe even biannually. Now, if you have this kind of cash lying around, please, by all means, share the wealth.


Just because evolutionists lied doesn't mean they were desperate to prove what they knew wasn't true. There are innumerable factors that could easily lead to falsification of data.

Everyone makes mistakes. The fact that you can realize you were wrong is admirable. It's kind of disappointing though that you are simply trading one ideology for another. Why not recognize that both schools of thought are imperfect and become agnostic? lol, now I sound like a missionary. I don't mean to be. I mean only to show you that there is another way.


Ok, how many high schoolers do you know that know one thing about evolution other than that we come from monkeys? How many high schoolers do you know that know one thing about the Bible other than that Adam and Eve came first and Moses parted a sea? Honestly, I think kids are presented with a broad overview of both topics, and left to do with them what they will. If you want kids given an thorough, in-depth teaching of both topics, start a private school and charge the tuition which will afford this. Good luck figuring that out. Good luck finding a student body. How many parents are willing to send their kids to a biased school? And pay big bucks for it? You will only get half of a town no matter where you go. Public school has to cater to everyone. Don't get mad, just look at it logically. There really isn't much alternative, feasibly.

The Bible is historically accurate? Which parts? The Old and New Testament? Cuz, just wondering, can you really logically follow the creation of man? Ok, Adam, then Eve, then Cain and Abel, then a ton of kids........so,...Cain had sex with his Mom..???...I could go on, but then again, what would be the point? You admit the dynamics of the Bible, so why not the dynamics of evolution? Why must one side definitely be correct right now? Evolution is not blind faith, and neither is Christianity. That statement doesn't even make sense. If evolution was blind faith there would not be scientists studying it everyday. There are evolutionists who have blind faith, yes. As there are Christians who have blind faith. But do not denounce an entire complicated idea based on the ignorance of the followers you have encountered. And maybe 99.9% of the evolutionists you have met are close-minded, but how many have you met? Enough to fill a room? A building? How about a planet? Have you talked, personally, to multiple experts on the topic? From different areas? Different backgrounds? Different genders? Races? Nationalities? Ages?

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

lauraclay

Where are you getting this information from? I'd love to see the statistics, from a credible source, of how many atheists become Christians and vice versa and how many evolutionists become creationists.


Would this not be your attitude, and several other creationists' attitudes towards believing evolution?


I hope you don't encounter the same hateful messages as well. However, may I offer a piece of advice? Ignore them. If you are 100% sure that their hateful messages will not advance the discussion, ignore them, and respond to something that matters, something that can further thought.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Og

Evolution is an expression of facts (observations that have been repeated and verified by multiple independent observers). To reject evolution is to reject the idea that observations correlate with reality which is just utterly counterintuitive in the most fundamental way.

There's no dogma or belief structure built around it. You make an observation. Evolution is an expression of these observations, nothing more.

Rejecting it is silly. The reason people reject it has nothing to do with its factual validity. People reject it because of other mental constructs they have like social and personal psyche/ego things.

Particularly since the advent of modern genomics. The history of all life can be mapped out without even looking for bones in the ground. You can do it through comparative genomics from bacteria to plants and animals and draw a picture of the "phylogenetic" tree of life. Fossils kind of fill in the exact details about how the intermediates were structured. Genomics and cosmology (to determine the age of things) gives us the whole picture of the process of evolution.

Want to reject it? That's fine. Are more people rejecting it these days? Maybe. Does it matter? From a perspective of the stability of our society, yes. Fortunately, many people rejecting evolution has nothing to say about its factual validity.

Evolution is a collection of facts and observations. Nothing more. People generalize it into some statements that may or may not be accurate, but the foundation of evolution is entirely in evidence that may be repeated by anyone.

Reject it and you're rejecting everything that modern science produces, including the computer that you read this on. To me, that seems silly.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Johnathan

I don't know. You can't really compare rejecting evolution to rejecting a computer, because no one says, "Saying that there was intellligent hand in the creation of a computer is just an excuse to explain how the computer got here. The truth is, billions of years ago, Future Shop exploded piecing together a fully constructed computer. It began at first, with simple components, known as "the simple chip." This simple chip over a long period of time, estimated 40 billion years, slowly went through a process that did not require a creator or any intelligent hand. Any files that didn't work were sent to the recycle bin, the files that did work were donwloaded. The chip eventually evolved into a stick, the stick, a card, and the card, a motherboard. Don't listen to those silly fundamentalists, who claim there was an intelligent creator in the computer. They just say that to explain away all the scientific evidences which clearly prove the computer was not created, but a subject of the evolutionary process over billions of years, by the result of a primitive computer shop explosion, which the components slowly advanced themselves to the modern technological state we see them in now. So ladies and gentlemen, Microsoftism is just a religion of fundamentalists who haven't opened there eyes to the truth, they can't understand it." All technology isn't connected to your theory, and to all those "intelligent men out there who know what a theory really is," no, you don't. In the dictionary (unless of course evolutionists made their own dictionary) you will see in regards to evolution it says it is based on theory, not on fact. Theory...not...on...fact. Obviously theory and fact are different.

Now I know someone is going to say that is a flawed relation between that theory and the theory of evolution. But in fact, they don't sound much different at all, and the possibility of that happening is equivalent to the possibility of a lawful, delicate and balanced universe forming out of an explosion. Did you know that if you change the way life works even by .10%, life can not exist? What made such a lawful, strict and balanced universe so delicate? Not an explosion which one day just decided to happen. What happened when people tried to configure the bee? Well, people died and now there is a killer bee. Diseases break out because of even the smallest changes.

I have been observing the arguments of creationists and evolutionists such as Richard Dawkins, who isn't the intelligent guy everyone thinks he is. When asked questions, he uses arguments based on faith as evolutionists do. It's faith, that's what it is, faith. Faith in something you have never seen, and all the evidences used to support it were either frauds or invalid. If you ask an evolutionist, "Have you observed the big bang, were you there when it happened, did you see it," same with asking that in regards to evolution, they have to say no. So what you have is faith that this did happen and not actual knowledge that it did. When Richard Dawkins was asked, "Has evolution been observed?" He said, "Yes but not while it's happening." So the answer is NO, it has not been observed. That statement is as valid as if you asked a creationist, "Has creation been observed?", they could say, "Yes, but not while it's happening."

I have heard again and again the statement that there is more atheists than we know, they are just afraid to come out of the closet, too scared that they will be looked down upon by their christian friends and family. Hmmm, why is this familiar with evolutionists and atheists? Whenever someone leaves evolution or atheism they are looked down upon as indoctrinated fools who have closed their eyes from the truth. I bet you there are alot of christians in atheist families who are too scared to come out of the closet because they will be looked down upon and be considered an indoctrinated fool, and don't lie and say this doesn't happen. It happens alot, and I would know.

One thing evolutionists and atheists will never get over is hypocracy, basically hand-in-hand with almost every statement they make.

Johnathan

This is just pathetic. I am tired of arguing with evolutionists who look at you like an indoctrinated fool and then say this is what christians do. Belief in the Bible is a blind faith I hear, but evolution is the blind faith. Creationists are the creators of science if you actually study back to the early scientists. Evolutionists claim everyone elses arguments are based on lack of knowledge or research, when everything they say and use as scientific proof is a proclaimed fraud or invalid statement based on lack of research. But you know what, I'm not getting into this because I already know the conclusion. Let see, it begins with I am wrong, you are right, here is the real truth, read this book and that book, etc etc...

There is no truth for the evolutionist, no end to the pain they cause, only the void of "I don't know." Hitler killed people because he believed they were lower on the evolutionary scale. And who did they happen to be? God's people. I find it funny how God, his people, and the Bible get attacked all the time, since the time of Jesus and before that, but very rarely the Buddhists, the Muslims, the Judaists, etc. Christ is attacked, God is attacked, the Bible is attacked, Christians are attacked, and when God and Christ are attacked, they are attacked personally, like you can see the atheist knows they are there. Guess what else is odd...most other religions, are beant specifically around attacking God and Christians..weird, huh? And people agree with these religions and say they know the real truth of what Christ was, but Christians don't?

This seems like a deception, like something planned out. Call me what you like, but when I really look at it I find this to be way too organised and directed at the assault of Christianity...

lauraclay

I see we have a conspiracy theorist on our hands! So God's people don't attack? What was the Spanish Inquisition? Muslims don't get attacked? You're telling me all the Jews in Gaza are peaceful? And most other religions are bent specifically around attacking God and Christians? Funny, in all I've ever read about Buddhism, Daoism, Shintoism, Native American religions, and Hinduism, Christ wasn't mentioned. Many of those religions were around way before Christianity. I defy you to find a Buddhist, a true Buddhist, who lives to attack Christians. It's not like Christians are the most persecuted group in the world. Were they not the invaders in the Crusades? Oh, sorry, the Muslims had only lived there hundreds of years as foreigners. I'm also pretty sure that if you look at the world powers, most powerful societies are Christian. I really don't get where you're coming from with this.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Og

Read this study
http://www.agnosticforums.com/evolut...apped-out.html

It was presented to me in an advanced neurophysiology course that I took and later taught at Cornell University. It illustrates similarities in membrane channels (most important bits of neuroscience) across all species.

Explain to me then, how we can look at genetic homology across species, combine dates with ancestors we find in fossils, understand processes involved in mutations through observations of them actually happening, understand the age of the universe through cosmology, and then say that none of that stuff really happened?

Evolution is an expression of fact. It is not just a whim of an idea as you seem to be implying when you use the term "theory."

I've addressed what theory means to scientists here and quashed this misconception.
http://www.agnosticforums.com/evolut...at-theory.html

So many people who are trying to push their dogmatic agenda speak on evolution and have never studied what we know.

When I say that computers are part of the same science that illustrates evolution, I mean EXACTLY THAT. Properties of Quantum Mechanics tell us the composition of the early universe through spectroscopy and they also provide the band gap in a semiconductor.

Have you ever heard of the Miller-Urey experiment? Carl Sagan went over this in his Cosmos series.

Carl Sagan's comment was that "Evolution is fact, its not a theory." And that is the case.

Keep on railing against it johnathan.. I couldn't imagine anyone in your position doing any differently. You are unexposed to the realities of science and you are probably in an environment where dogmatic religions are the norm. At least your behavior means you're a normal functioning biomachine who responds appropriately to its environment.

I have sequenced DNA myself. I have inserted genes into bacteria and yeast in the same way you program a computer with computer code. I have a PhD in biophysics. Using flourescence microscopy, I have SEEN a single DNA polymerase molecule incorporate base pairs into the strand of DNA in a nanofabricated device that some collegues of mine got on the cover of Science magazine with.

Last week i met the guy who wrote the software "BLAST" which is the most cited paper in the last 20 years or so because it made comparative genomics possible.

You're claiming that my statements are dogmatic. Refute the illustrations of the combined facts of sequence homology, fossil record, and cosmology.

Have you ever SEEN the beginning of the universe? I have. I've seen the background radiation of the universe and listened to it on an audio monitor. That's just like someone sitting at a football game and SEEING the light bounce off the players. I've seen photons from the beginning of time... And you can to.

It's infinitely more amazing than any dogma you've been lost in.

Where exactly is the dogma in any of this? I certainly don't see it.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are