john76

Hey PsiCop. I read your website. I agree that the mystery religions are important to understanding the origins of Christianity. I especially agree that Justin Martyr's response to the pagans is important when considering this topic.

AB517

It depends on your motive.

Is your message for them or you?
Is it for the person you are answering or other people that are reading the exchange? Those that are not so egocentric to think we are right all the time.

I like reading you post so far. Many people do not understand why and how Constantine used Christianity as a tool to solidify his power let alone how and why, even within the constraints of Christianity, the bible was assembled.

WilliamBlue

Welcome aboard PsiCop, I for one consider myself rather weak when it comes Christianities history and I am looking forward to reading your posts!

__________________
When you dance with an elephant it's up to you to not get stepped on.
How can we be so arrogant and egotistical to believe that the whole Universe was created just for us?

Kenneth

Yeah, I still don't understand how Christianity overtook European polytheism and why I didn't grow up kneeling at the altar of Athena and her priestesses--however kinky that sounds

Vinterland

Welcome!
I'm gonna check out those essays you've written. Thanks for sharing!

__________________
And on we walked. Suddenly we heard a voice crying, "This is the sea. This is the deep sea. This is the vast and mighty sea." And when we reached the voice it was a man whose back was turned to the sea, and at his ear he held a shell, listening to its murmur.
And my soul said, "Let us pass on. He is the realist, who turns his back on the whole he cannot grasp, and busies himself with a fragment."
—Gibran Khalil Gibran, “The Greater Sea.”

PsiCop

The point in responding in such a way, to people like that, is to turn the tables on them and represent, back to them, their own attitude. It may not make them change their minds ... such people KNOW they're being confrontational, that's what they've CHOSEN to do ... but giving a little back to them shows, at the very least, that you know what their game is.

As for Constantine ... something that most people now are unaware of, is the nature of the Roman Empire he inherited from his mentor Diocletian. Prior to Diocletian's reign a plague had ravaged the western part of the Empire (including the environs of Rome, as well as much of the north African coast, which was the "breadbasket" for Rome and much of Italy). The infrastructure crumbled. Diocletian himself attempted to set things right but was only partly successful; one of his policies was to invest heavily in the eastern Empire, which had not been so badly affected. By Constantine's time the cities of the east had become the Empire's industrial and economic engine.

By this time, also, Christianity ... mostly in the form of Gnosticism, as well as other semi-mystical movements like Marcionism and Montanism ... had become very popular among the eastern urban intelligentsia. These were the teachers, the merchants, the respected leaders of the region; all educated in the Greek language and schooled in Hellenic thought. They held a great deal of influence over eastern commerce and industry even if the governmental administrators were almost all pagan Romans. Keeping up eastern morale meant, therefore, reaching the eastern urban intelligentsia. Diocletian had made some early half-hearted efforts to win them over, but they considered him a brutal warlord and weren't swayed. Moreover, a milder plague had gone through the east; not as devastating as what had happened in the west, it undermined whatever gains he'd made there.

Constantine, on the other hand, had been born in Naissus (in modern Serbia), Moesia province, and was thus considered "an easterner." (Granted, Diocletian himself was from Dalmatia, not far to the west, but in classical Rome, Dalmatia was considered part of the "native Roman" sphere and associated with the west, rather than the east.) This gave him some appeal to other easterners, which others hadn't able to exploit. During Diocletian's reign the eastern capital of Nicomedia had become ascendant; Constantine developed contacts and influence there which he would take advantage of for the rest of his career. Even while he campaigned in wars against other imperial contenders, Constantine always kept this eastern "back-channel" of support, and it served him well.

Overall, the result of this was that the east became pivotal not only to the fortunes of the Empire as a whole, but it was also Constantine's personal power-base. He needed to become master of that region ... not only militarily, but he also had to build loyalty there. Thus, once he became sole emperor, he re-instituted policies that Diocletian had attempted to use to win over the east ... which worked better for him, personally ... and he found additional avenues to exploit.

One of these was to declare tolerance for Christianity. It really is just that simple ... the Edict of Milan (313) was pure political expediency for Constantine.

What amazes me is that so many people find this so difficult to believe. But think about it ... politicians doing expedient things to enhance their authority and their personal power-bases? Nothing could possibly be less surprising than that!

PsiCop

A lot of it had to do with accident of history. Had Emperor Julian the Apostate survived his campaign in Persia and returned to build the new church of Theurgy he'd started, and made it the "state religion" of Rome (as he appears to have contemplated doing, once he'd undermined Christianity sufficiently), things might have turned out very differently.

debdodd

Good ... then will you go and give Abel a lesson on religion .... he is so closed minded that it disgusts me with all his he's going to heaven and we're going to hell rhetoric ....

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

AB517

thanks phi

No better way to help gain more power, at least back then, to sweet away the current religious leaders with another religion, as you pointed out, with some legs under it.

john76

Just the same, Psi, I'm not really sure why you think there is anything new or controversial on your site. Even the supposed heresy of the relation between Jesus and other older religions is well known and documented. They even have a Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_a...tive_mythology

They also have a popular movie:
http://www.thegodmovie.com/