Eastspur

Let me start out by saying WOOHOO!!! Finally somewhere where I can share my ideas without being looked at like I'm crazy. I embrace logic and reason which in my family and group of friends is "out-of-the-norm". I firmly believe that people who follow organized religion (which living where I live means baptists for the most part) do so out of fear. Fear of rejection, fear of death, or maybe both. Maybe some people never ask why, maybe some people don't know how. I quickly learned I'm wasting time trying to use reason with people who do not reason. I tend to agree with Jefferson that even god has to accept reason over fear. I love debating, I love being proven wrong. I do often find myself debating with Christians and I always respect others beliefs.

Some days I believe in a God, other days I don't. So basically I don't know.

Other thoughts I have... which are just thoughts.
Would an all powerful god really create us to follow a book? Seems so... silly.
Belief gets you into heaven while a good person who doesn't believe goes to hell. If this is true, then I have no wish to live eternity with a God that can let good men go to hell. I would rather burn with the good men. Yeah iv heard the arguments. Sorry I'm being blunt. As you can tell, I have a lot to vent.

Oh and I love quotes.

Travis
age: 23
Texas


Umm first post so be gentle

Og

Welcome Travis. Glad to have you. Good thoughts. I look forward to your contributions to our discussion!

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

nakamichi680zx

Welcome Travis! Your energy feels so fresh.

I'm pretty new here too and have learned that I tend to quote a lot then I post (just search my posts so far).

I think I need to stop or else I'll be just a quoting machine instead of having my own original thoughts.

Enjoy the ride!

__________________
GrassHoppah: The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences.

debdodd

feel free to vent and quote away ... you'll notice most of us have our own little quote or words of wisdom at the bottom of our post. There is freedom in anonymity here so have fun and welcome.

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

GX

Congratulations on breaking the slave shackles of religious dogma, doctrine, fear and ignorance! No one religion or book owns God/Creator/Universe or whatever you wish to call it. You have also become aware that fear is not a natural condition for humans and thus not the way of God/Creator/Universe. Keep up the good work and continue to seek your truth and thrive. You have evolved quickly for a 23 year old in the middle of the bible belt. If you want a radically different take on God than what you were brought up with, I suggest you read "conversations with god" book 1, by Neale Donald Walsch (its not religious at all). Welcome to the forum.

Skepticologist

Hey Travis. The fact that we're fellow Texans gives us something in common, although the religion I escaped from was the Church of Christ which, if anything, is even more mindlessly fundamentalist than the Baptists, who are more politically inclined.

I predict that, if you keep looking, you'll discover a lot more incongruities and contradictions within the Christian faith or, in my personal experience, within any of the formalized major religions, although some, such as Buddhism or other Eastern forms, call for a lot less abandonment of reason and logic.

And that's the one standard I suggest you subscribe and adhere to as you consider which religion, if any among the established ones, you eventually adopt. Or, as in my personal case, which you refuse to adopt on the basis of logic and reason.

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

Eastspur

We are also in the same city

Thanks for all the welcomes. I'm still looking around. I guess I have been at the point of rejecting formal religion due to reason and logic for a while. I just can't see how God would accept fear and reject reason. I do feel like I was being lazy at some points. I doubt I will be searching for any religion in the near future (I hate to say ever). I will be spending more time searching for truth and less time being lazy. I may not find a answer to my questions but at least I can say I tried.

Skepticologist

I could accept a God who "would accept fear and reject reason". What I can't accept are the inconsistencies and contradictions in all the religious texts I'm aware of. For example, the Bible depicts God as being all-loving and desirous of all his children being saved and living with him in eternal bliss on the one hand while, on the other hand, it says he's jealous and vengeful and predicts (Matthew chapter 7) that most of his children will end up in eternal torment.

That's where my reason and logic kick in. The same criteria I employ to decide which mortal individuals I choose to trust and associate with, when applied to the Biblical portrayal of the Christian God, cause me to withdraw rather than embrace.

If I'm reading your posts correctly, that's about where you are in your intellectual evolution. And I've got to tell you that that's about where I was in my intellectual evolution some 20 years ago. I admire your commitment to continue searching for answers, and I hope that when and if you find them, you'll pass them along to me. Because, 20 years down the road from my "enlightenment", I'm still searching and have all but given up hope that I'll have those answers before I die.

But I'm OK with that because I firmly believe that I've found all the answers I really need to guide me through this life and have adopted them as operating principles. What happens after I die is really of no importance to me. I consider it an unknowable proposition, so it simply doesn't occupy my thoughts.

The foregoing is offered in the interest of warning you in advance that, if you continue to demand that your beliefs be based on reason and logic, you will likely reach the same point I have, absent some unlikely and revolutionary scientific discoveries. You will hopefully believe you've adequately tested the assumptions from which you choose to operate on a daily basis, but you'll be left with many unanswered questions and will consequently need to make yourself comfortable with saying "I just don't know".

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

Eastspur

Well I guess I could accept that God as well, that doesn't mean I would agree with him. The Idea of sending good men to hell while the people that simply believe blindly can go to heaven is what gets me. I found it hard to believe and or agree with. I guess thats what initially started me down this road. The more I think about it the more I see that logic and reason at this point take me farther away from any belief in God. I guess I am definitely at the point of accepting that right now there is no proof in either direction. I will not say that he exists or doesn't exist.

On the inconsistencies found in the bible... Even if the bible were flawless it is still a book with a large following. This alone should not be evidence of God. I'm searching for personal truth and not trying to debunk any religion. I doubt I will ever find my truths either, but I will keep searching.

Cleric_of_Reason

It looks like you and I may have something in common. I too have come from a baptist background. I'm looking forward to seeing you're views and opinions. Welcome!!

__________________
I'm tired of living under a desk lamp. I'm ready to find the real light.