Astral

So you are saying that people that have found, then lost, and found again their faith are liars? Be careful how you answer that one.

How very little you appear to know about Judaic and Christian origins. Which day is the Sabbath? It is Saturday. The Jews still practice it. The Catholics do it on Sunday. The Christian Churches do it on Sunday as well. The Christian Churches of Sunday worship are daughter churches of the Catholic faith, therefore they borrow much of their ignorant dogma. The judgments against the Catholic church will destroy it, and its daughters are bid to come out from her. They can't very well do that unless they get back to their roots and leave Catholic dogma behind. It appears that these churches have a central origin... it is the catholics. That is why I say it is a Catholic belief.

Try reading Revelations some time. That church is the Great Harlot and will be destroyed. Besides... it looks like 5 out of 7 churches will be destroyed as well... looks like the vast majority have it wrong.

He he... that Church is an amalgam of Pagan and Christianity. But you may very well be correct that without that church any form of Christianity may have been wiped out (thank goodness for the crusades). But keep in mind that because of that Church is why there are so many "other" churches over here. A lot of people got tired of their dogma.

But regardless... if that church is a lie than thats the end of it. If Satan personally came down and saved my life I would never give my soul to him. Are you saying that I should? Perhaps this is something you would do yourself? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Astral

Yes... its a strange and difficult concept to wrap ones mind around. When Christ asked Peter who He was... Peter said that He was the Son of God. Christ said that the Holy Spirit revealed that to him and that it was a blessing. Peter being with the Holy Spirit did not call Him God did he? Yet Christ and God are one in a sense.

When a man and a woman are married God said He shall make the twain 1. But even after making the twain 1 there are 2 separate and autonomous entities correct? In a fashion that is Christ and God. Christ said that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him. I think the whole Idea was to identify that the relationship between God and Christ is very close and special, not to necessarily explain it in terms we can comprehend.

I can say this... that it is not necessary to salvation to have the skinny on Christ and God's relationship. Furthermore I think the agnostics would have the benefit in this arena. Because for as much as we can know... there is far more we won't and will not be allowed to know until we die.

greywolf90

im not saying that a person could not possibly go back to a religion they left. but if a person left atheism for christianity because they felt that it was true and athiesm was wrong, then they would probably not go back to atheism when they felt that christianity was the truer of the two. and the same would go for vice versa. as for the question, im not sure where you got "liars" from, but if a person lost faith and then had faith again, i think i would question if they ever really lost their faith. mabey someone could go to a different religion just to taste something new and then decide their old religion was the mor correct one. but im refering to someone who did not choose to leave their old religion or want to; they just eventually see it as wrong and can either pretend to still believe in it or leave it behind. this is just my opinion because i personally have never gone back to a religion i left.

all i was saying was that the trinity is not just catholic but protestant also. how is this a lack of knowledge in christianity? yes i know the protestant churches came from the catholic church, and i was making these comments under the impression that you belonged to one of the protestant churches (many protestants are anticatholic). do you mind telling me what branch of christianity you belong to? also, you are once again telling me i don't know things that i do.

i have already read all of the NT and most of the OT. no the revelations does not specifically "the chatholic church is the great harlot" this is only your personal interperatation of it.

this last comment was also made under the impression that you were protestant. mabey now you can better understand why i was saying it. no catholics= no protestants.

__________________
"for there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."- Hamlet

nkrummy

Astral - if you go back and read what I said, I do believe some people can have their faith restored, but it has to do with what caused them to lose it in the first place. In my case there is no bitterness to overcome. I had a perfectly pleasant experience within the church community itself and met a lot of nice people. I simply cannot accept many of the tenets of Christianity because after thinking about and studying religion and philosophy over the years, it just doesn't add up for me anymore.

nkrummy

haha- good point Greywolf. What may really throw a lot of people off about me is that when I view all of the Christian religions, I still view Catholicism above the rest. Catholicism is simply more consistent.
I have always found it ironic that the Protestants base their faith around the Bible which was put together by the Catholics.
When it comes down to it it was a group of mere men who sat and prayed and studied together who made the determination for all mankind, which texts were and were not considered holy, and they chose which texts would form the Bible. Now I don't believe that a group of men back then had any special authority that would equip them to make those kinds of decisions any better than a modern group of men today might have. Catholics did, and they consistently defer to the church fathers to this day for guidance in defining doctrine as it applies to faith and morals and in establishing tradition.
Protestants confuse me. Do they think that the early Church fathers (who were basically the first Catholic leaders) had some sort of authority to put together the Bible, start the first churches etc, but that at some point God decided, without saying anything to anyone, that he was suddenly going to take that authority away from all future generations of men?
Think of the outcome of the Arian controversy- again we see a group of mere men debating topics that have defined Chrisitianity ever since... such as the very nature of Christ.... Was he man? a prophet of God? God himself? These men made the decision for everyone, and it makes sense that the Catholic church abides by those decisions, because to this day, they trust in the hierarchy of the Church and its councils to make the call on a topic of controversy.
For a protestant, who has decided there is no authority in the church fathers, what makes them adopt and take for granted everything that was established by the Catholics in the first place? And that includes the trinity, because the vast majority of people who consider themselves Christian do believe in that concept, as you've pointed out.

Astral

My comment on faith restoration was not directed at you. I can accept that you may not be bitter. It just seemed to come to me, my apologies if I errored.

nkrummy

Okay- no harm done
I guess my point is that there are different reasons a person "loses their faith"
Sometimes it's based on something that happens in their life or some experience they have that causes them to feel abandoned, resentful or bitter toward their God or their church/faith. Their faith can be restored when they learn to get over what upset them in the first place, and stop placing blame on the faith.
But sometimes a person leaves their faith because they experience a sort of "revelation". Obviously it's not spritual in nature, so that may not be the best choice of words, but they basically go down a path of thought that makes them nearly incapable of seeing and feeling things as they once did.
I think Greywolf's comment about the tunnel is similar to Plato's metaphor of the cave...
If a person live their whole life in the darkness of a cave, they simply accept that that is what life is, but if one day they break free and step out of the cave into the light, that will so deeply impact them, that once their eyes adjust and they see a whole new world before them, they will never be able to return to the frame of mind they were in when they only knew of the cave.
That metaphor is a good way to explain what has caused some agnostics, like myself, to become agnostic in the first place. I knew and felt and thought a certain way about God and faith and how it and I fit into the universe. After broadening my exposure and learning and thinking to encompass many other facets of the world... including different faiths and cultures, I stepped out of the "bubble" I was in before and I don't see how I could ever return to it.

Astral

Based on this reply I think we may actually ultimately agree. If this is the case then why would you make the post you made earlier? Am I misunderstanding something? I firmly believe that something may be lost and found again, and it looked to me as though you implied once lost it was lost.

Protestant is a church that left the catholic church. They show to be very unoriginal in their dogma. Of course many are anti-catholic(which is why they left), but that still does not mean they are not Daughter churches of that faith. I feel that it is very important to disseminate the differences so that one may better understand the relationships. You have already seen many accusations of Christians borrowing Pagan concepts... some of them are true.

lol... I am either right or wrong... there is no interpretation about it. Reading something is not enough. Not only am I well read on the subject matter, but also well informed. There are many major components of understanding Prophecy.

#1. Faith (no understating for the faith-less... God withholds.)
#2. Historical Knowledge (must know historical facts)
#3. Current and Historical Political knowledge (Politics and social movement)
#4. Geographical knowledge (location, location, location)
#5. Excellent comprehension skills (perception, something my IQ scores say I am gifted in)

Protestants are daughter churches and if they do not leave their mother they will be destroyed too. They show no such signs of leaving the catholic faith... they are just like most other so called religious people. They want to pick and choose what part of their religion they like.

I am non-denominational... trust me when I say that I am not like the other Christians... I am something else.

In general people have many opinions about religions. But I have found that the vast majority are completely misinformed and do not care to be corrected. Most people who read the bible read it like they are reading a novel. They can point out some of the major events but specifics are either flat wrong, or misunderstood. It's blatantly ridiculous how much bad information is out there.

Astral

It may be difficult for some to understand why they would go back to the cave once outside, but people can become institutionalized for better or for worse. Some will go back into that cave, and for different reasons as well.

Maybe "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" comment applies here. Sometimes people can only see it better over there and never where they are at. I run into those kinda peeps all the time. I hope you can understand what I mean.

nkrummy

Well just so I'm clear on how I'm using this metaphor, I am not saying it is a metaphor for anyone who loses their faith. The person who had a loved one die and is mad at God for allowing it to happen... even if they say they reject God... that person may have never stepped out of the cave. That person is still in the cave but feeling abandoned and untrusting of everything that made them feel safe. That person can be coaxed into trusting again and renewing their faith.
Stepping out of the cave, for me, symbolizes a huge transition in the way feelings and thoughts are processed in regards to belief systems in general. Quite simply, the whole world has changded for that person. They have a broad new perception of the world, and I don't think someone can revert back to their old ways, once that happens.
Maybe it is possible for them to find some version of a faith or belief in something later on in life, but it will be something completely new and different than what they were able to accept before. It would have to be a very liberal, unliteral, almost ambiguous type of belief... It would be more concept focused, rather than being focused on the nature of a spiritual force. I definitley don't think it would be based on so-called religious "facts" which attempt to prove that which cannot be proven.