Jacob

Welcome, nkrummy.

The gospels of the new testament in the bible are sales pitches written by men who wrote them 50 to 80 yrs. after Jesus' lifetime. These authors had never actually met Jesus. Therefore, the contents of these scriptures do not necessarily mirror the teachings of the self-proclaimed prophet.

A good documentary to see is "From Jesus to Christ: the first christians" on PBS. It features scholars from Harvard, Yale, Princeton etc. who discuss their findings from actual archeological and historical evidence.


Jacob

__________________


Religions, movements and even nations
are constructs invented by humans.

They only take on meaning
if humanity chooses to accept them.

Telimaktar

Thanks greywolf for point out this thread. A blessing in disguise so to speak

Hi nkrummy and everyone else. I'm also new here.
My life’s story regarding religion is similar in many ways to yours.

I too started looking more critically at what was written in the bible. Events and actions that were clearly unjust but somehow justified just because God commanded it.

Murder, rape, slavery...

That is when I started asking myself if a God, having had created so much beauty and complex systems in this universe, could be so petty and evil.

Why would God (Christian God) decide that if you don't follow his word I should die. I'm not a bad person, I'm not perfect but I try to live as closely as I can to the morals laid down in the bible

Surely God is above a silly concept such as religion. It just seems a desperate attempt by mankind to give a reason to our existence here.

So I realised that the God depicted in the bible was not one I could follow.
And much like you I do believe in god, be it a massive energy, alien or whatever. But I have lost faith in religion.

So here I am much like yourself and the others desperately seeking... truth.

But you know what really comforts me, the fact that there are so many likeminded people here, debating and discussing so that together an effort can be made to bring clarity and truth.

nkrummy

Astral- My overall impression is that we are in two very different places right now. Also, I don't think it's possible to "restore someone's faith" once they've gone down this path.
If a person's reason for losing their faith in the first place was based on something shallow, like they're resentment toward a church leader, or anger at God for something bad that happens to them, or frustration at a group of church members who are acting hypocritical, etc... I think it's possible that those sort of people could go back into the fold at some point later on in life.

Someone who loses their faith because over the years they find they can no longer see things "through a believer's eyes", so to speak, are different. They already went past the point of no return when they first started realizing that the guilt or taboo or inner voice that is supposed to keep them from doubt and asking controversial questions no longer exists for them. It's like from then on, it's a total free-for-all... there is no question that cannot be asked or considered. Everything and anything gets fair consideration.

Everything that felt "real" to them for certain years of their life no longer holds any otherworldly power. And that brings up another issue. If something that once seemed like a "spiritual knowing" has turned out to be untrustworthy, then we can't even trust our own feelings! The whims of our own emotions can trick us into thinking we sense angels in our midst!

When someone starts operating from that point, it's an uphill battle to believe again. There has to be a reason- and it better be a good one- behind every belief that they'd be willing to accept. In fact, each belief has to now make sense within an almost universal context, and there has to be a reason why that belief is considered the only reasonable belief when placed against a dozen competing beliefs that all have their own good points and merit.


So you see... lol, my point is I am so far on the other side of the fence, that you'd have to cross it and then still swim an ocean to get to me, and then we'd have to build an underwater walkway along the sea floor together to get back! So just look at it this way: we're both meant to be where we're at and nothing's going to change the way either of us believed any time soon.

Now, all that being said, I have nothing against the fact that you're a Christian. I still love many messages and lessons from the Bible, and still value them in my own life, so I wish you nothing but the best in your faith... and I hope to keep seeing you around!

nkrummy

Greywolf- wow, the more I read the more I realize hom much we have in common... especially the whole thing about being a "self-taught" Christian.
I find it so fascinating... and kind of ironic... to see how a "self-taught" Christian like one of us is different from the Christians bred and raised in church communities.
I had never even thought about it before until you just now mentioned it, but in all my early years of reading the Bible and praying on my own, I too only prayed to God. I too loved and respected Jesus because of everything he did and said and taught, but never really focused much on how he fit into the trinity. His being a diety or not being a diety never came across to me as a big deal- that really wasn't the point. The point was to learn from those parables and how they could apply to your own life and make you a better person. The point was to follow the example he set in every hour of his life... but Churches seem to be more concerned with his death.. and the great resurrection! They're obsessed with the tellings of miracles... because those "prove" his authenticity as a holy being.
I have to say I don't like where the emphasis is placed in many churches, and that is what I dislike the most about the various Christian factions. As a "self-taught" Christian, it seemed so clear that my purpose was to strive always to be a better person- to always work to correct my own flaws and work toward selflessness and humility and wisdom and charity. God had his greatest role in my life in simply reminding me have love in my heart for everyone (as I believed he did), and to be remorseful for my wrongdoings and grateful for every blessing I had. I feel that God's main purpose in a Church setting is to be the mascot for the winning team. Each of the "losers"... i.e. non-believers gets an eternity of suffering, even if they didn't have a mean-spirited bone in their body.
Ugh... well I could go on for hours... but there will be plenty more threads and other days for all of that.
But in the end, I really enjoyed your post, and I can't tell you how awesome it is to find so many people on here that just already seem to have similar experiences... and I just look forward to reading more!

nkrummy

Hi Jacob- nice to meet you.
I know there's nothing scientific about it - lol- but I tend to attribute all of the wise teachings in the Bible to Jesus, and view all of the miracle stories as the exaggerations of the writers. It's just the way I imagine the whole Jesus story kind of developed. There is a reasoning behind this though...
The thing is, I think there are some people in this world, not very many throughout our history, but there are some.... who really "get it". Not only do they "get it" but they have it in them, unlike so many of us lesser folks, to "live the life" - the kind of life we should all be living. Some of them live humbly through life and you and I will never hear about them. It's because they aren't particularly attractive or attention getting people, but you can find them in the local soup kitchen or children's hospital every weekend, and they never shirk away from the chance to do something for someone else, whatever the cost to them.
Some of them have become famous.... Jesus, Ghandi, Mother Teresa. It is just so shocking and beyond our comprehension to see the way that these people live their lives, that sometimes people become tempted to think they are a higher god-like being altogether, whether it be as a saint or a reincarnation or even God!
Now just imagine a person of that caliber who lived in a ancient time and how superstitious, uneducated, story-telling culture would percieve him and interpret his life. The thing is, it doesn't bother me that there are miracle stories that men atributed to him, just like it doesn't bot her me to read the stories of Zeus and Apollo. The magical quality of a story can make it more powerful and memorable, but in the end, the purpose of the story is to convey a message. I think there are many great messages in the Bible, and they show a lot of wisdom... possibly all from one very wise man

Eh- it's just the way I kind of view it, but I'm always interested in learning more solid theories, and I love documentaries. Thanks for the tip off- maybe I'll get a chance to watch it sometime

nkrummy

Hey Teli

Well, I think you make a very good point. That whole all-loving but also genocide-loving God thing is probably one of the biggest reasons that most ex-Christians ended up falling away from the faith.
The thing is, when you read the Old Testament, it's almost like you can just tell how different people thought back then. They were very primitive and their perception of God was a very simplistic one... "do this to make God happy, but don't do that or he'll get mad!" All humans typically respond to positive and negative reinforcement, so this type of belief inherently has a lot of power for most people.

The problem is people started thinking more. The more you think, the less it all makes sense.

If God is greater than us in every way, wouldn't that mean he is not only stronger and more knowledgable than we could ever be, but also surpasses us in his capacity for compassion, and forgiveness, and patience?

Well, not neccessarily. He could be a really bad guy... but since he's got the might, he gets to say what's right, and its in our best interest to please him, because he alone has the power to bring horrible suffering to us. Now, if this is the case, I am the type of person that at this point just says "bring it!". lol- sersiously, if the only one thing in the whole world that gives me power over this cruel and unsympathetic God is my own free will, then I want to hold on to that. There is no reason to worship him- because he does not deserve to be worshipped through any goodness of his own.

But... maybe it *is* true that he's loving and compassionate... as many Christians try to say that he is. Maybe he is a God truly worth loving with every part of your being, because he is full of love and compassion for all of us, and has great patience and yada yada yada. Well, I like that idea, but I don't think it's at all compatible with the heaven/hell teachings that nearly all Christians hold on to. It simply does not make sense. Let's say God is using positive and negative reinforcement to teach us and help us grow. That's not unlike the way we parent our own kids. The only thing is, no matter how many times a parent spanks their child, or puts them on time out, or grounds them, no decent parent on Earth could ever ever bear to let their child suffer for an eternity. So if God is truly willing to allow any single one of us to suffer for an eternity, then his capacity of love for us, is no even as strong as the love that any parent out there has for their kid. What makes it worse is that you don't even have to kill or rape or murder or steal or anyhing in order to be cast off to this eternal suffering. If you even make the mistake of following a different religion- such as the one you were raised in all your life- then that could be your fate. This whole hell concept is total absurdity to me!

I guess the final God scenario would be one where God was neither cruel nor loving. Possibly he is such an amorphous transcendent being that we cannot accurately describe him.. or "it" with human emotions and characteristics. In fact- maybe just more of an all-encompassing "force" than anything else. This God would have no vanity or desire to have our worship. There would be no wrath or vengefulnes toward "non-believers" - The force simply moves the world and effects anything and everyone, regardless of their beliefs.

Who knows, but the point is an all loving God who casts people away from him for eternity if they don't worship him just doesn't seem to make any sense to me either!

Nice to meet you

Astral

I will be around. You really believe that faith once lost cannot be restored? Do you consider searching for your keys after you lose them once? Or do you go and order another set? I do understand what you really want to say... after all that you have been through you can't see how it could be restored. Bitterness is very difficult to overcome.

Don't worry... I have no intention of converting anyone that does not wish to be converted. I am mainly here to try and help correct many misunderstandings regarding the Bible. There are so many that even most Christians are completely ignorant of the truth.

I do not believe in the Trinity as the Catholics either. Neither do I pray to Christ. I pray to God. Also that so called voice of no-question is an ignorant church doctrine. God does not mind questions in the least and neither does God want blind Faith and nothing else.

Yes... often churches are nothing more than institutions that seek to brow beet people into faith, and thats not what church is for. Church is really for the fellowship and as a bride of Christ.

greywolf90

i do not know if you ever believed in another religion, but for the sake of my example, try imagining that you were a firm atheist. now for some personal reasons or some kind of revelation, you converted to christianity, which is in your mind, the real truth. do you think you would be able to go back to atheism? if you spend your life in darkness, and were one day shown the light, most likely you would not want to go back into the dark. this is the way it is for me and i assume for others as well.

the trinity is not a belief held by just the catholic church. the trinity is actually a concept held by most denominations that i know of. i never went to a catholic church, but out of the churches i have been to, i have not seen one that did not follow the trinity.

as for your beliefs, you can say that yours are the truth of christianity, but i could just as easily say that catholicism is the only real truth. neither of us would be able to prove the other wrong, therefore, truth is only what we choose to make it.

i also noticed some of your earlier comments on catholicism as not being real christianity, and i think this is as good a time as any to point out that were it not for catholicism, you would probably not be a christian now (unless you are greek orthodox). the romans would have spread paganism to the rest of europe and we would be worshipping jove and mars instead.

__________________
"for there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so."- Hamlet

Telimaktar

Yes, I like that view, and to be honest it would explain a lot about why God is no longer or even ever was active in mankinds life. I create and let be, allow life to just take it's course, let mankind just be alive and experience.

It is difficult to understand why God was so active(supposedly) in those years but not now.

And I've read in these thread where people say but look at this battle and that one where a strange desicion totally changed the outcome of the war. But in that case I would ask why God would not stop things like the tsunami's, hurricanes, volcano's and so forth.

Just doesn't add up.

Great meeting you to.

Telimaktar

Now that is something I always had a problem with. The trinity, the word itself is nowhere in the bible and you would think that such an important concept would be explained in the bible, especially by the disciples in the NT.

I know that someone will throw the very few verses that refer to this idea like, "My father and I are one" and so forth, but again this is the question of what does one take literally and what figuratively.
It could read that “My father and I are the same, we think alike, react alike...”
So I find very little proof of the trinity in the bible. That is some strange manmade concept.