trufbetold

Hello all. My name is Chris, and before you ask, yes I am a Christian. I hope I am welcomed, although I am no longer one of you (and haven't been for several years) I can totally understand your disdain under the circumstances, after all I was also a devout atheist. Then many people challenged me on my life as it related to my beliefs, and it got to me. So I realized that the only way that I could have some peace over the shambles my life was in, was to justify my way as supremely more efficient than God's way, by disproving what was written in the Bible. The only thing I respected (as much I still do today) is truth, because the truth is the only correct and possible outcome (if I was talking about mathematics, surely you would agree). So I realized that I couldn't just reject the bible because I didn't like the christians pushing it, I had to disagree with it because it was a lie, if I could only prove it. So I did what most atheist and agnostics would never think to do, I studied and studied it until I could make a rational decision, I kept an open mind. So I researched, studied, interviewed and weighed the arguments in the bible against society at large. Needless to say, I was shocked! I'm not expecting you to believe me, infact, the mere notion that one of your own people would take the time to declare this fact to you is proof enough my friend! The more I studied, the more I was convinced, the more I challenged each point, the more it's truths became evident, the more I rejected His promises the more it romanced me and I was torn against myself! I got saved! and it wasn't even a "well, ok it all sounds dandy so I guess I'll try it" no...I begged and begged for forgiveness. I don't care if this is embarrassing, it is the truth, and I haven't been the same since God transformed me by it.

Buddha

I don't buy it.

__________________
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are american dreams

marmalade

First off, we aren't devout atheists. You might want to explore some of threads clarifying the differences between atheism and agnosticism. Also, there are many agnostic Christians and even a few who label themselves atheist Christians. Literalism isn't the most interesting or insightful way of interpreting the Bible.

Many atheists and agnostics have studied the bible. If you really want to test how well you know the 'truth' of the bible, then I'd invite you to visit a forum like Richard Dawkins or Internet Infidels. There are many atheists/agnostics on those forums that are highly informed of the bible.

This forum is a little more laid back, but you'll get challenged even here. Of course, you're welcome to join in. However, if you want to fit in, then you probably shouldn't jump into preacher mode. It might be better to introduce yourself with some personal information about your life. There'll be plenty of time later to share/declare your beliefs.

So, what brings you here besides your evangelism?

Skepticologist

I don't think anyone here would refute your claim that the bible contains many truths, just as does the q'uaran, the talmud, etc. To reject and ignore the whole thing just because you don't believe parts of it is regrettable because it contains some very valuable lessons.

But it's equally regrettable to embrace the whole thing just because you find some parts of it true. There are just too many blatant contradictions and inconsistencies for anyone capable of rational thought to overlook.

You didn't say what flavor of christian you became, so I'm not sure to what extent you had to suspend logic and reason in order to claim such a strong belief in the bible. A lot of modern christians get around some of the contradictions by choosing to interpret certain scriptures allegorically vs. literally. Maybe I'm just playing some of my old fundamentalist tapes, but I've never understood what objective standard is applied to make that distinction. Do you just label anything that appears absurd, e.g. the genesis account of creation, as allegorical? After all, it's not presented as a figurative vision like the revelation of John, or as a parable. There's no evidence in either the bible or secular science to indicate that a day, as characterized by the rising and setting of the sun observed in genesis, has ever consisted of anything other than one 24-hour revolution of the earth.

My personal experience with such dilemmas, which I encountered head-on in college biology and astronomy courses, involved initially falling back on biblical cautions about trusting "science falsely so called" and stressing that god's wisdom is higher than man's wisdom. In short, I had faith that Darwin's theory would be refuted given a sufficient passage of time, as would carbon dating techniques and emerging developments in physics. But the evidence against the genesis account just kept mounting until it was virtually impossible to "keep the faith" without completely ignoring some very well documented peer-reviewed discoveries.

In the meantime, probably attributable to heretically overlooking gospel admonitions to avoid questioning my faith, I started coming to grips with some of the aforementioned contradictions and inconsistencies, all of which had more to do with philosophy vs. empirical science.

Finally, about 20 years ago, I found myself compelled to decide whether my faith would be invested in nebulous biblical teachings that made no sense to me, or in documented science, which did, and I chose the latter.

If you're sufficiently convinced that the bible contains all truth, then I'd encourage you to completely reject any information that would call it into question, without even thinking about it. I think that's the essence of faith.

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

trufbetold

I know your not atheists, but it's seems that you are on the same sort of persuasion, being people who are non-believers. I know what agnosticism is, you guys say stuff like "I do not disbelieve", I knew a handful of them when I was an atheist. I've been to many atheist forums, some before but the most, after I came to know Christ. I felt responsible to go and witness to my own people first, after all, I would never in million years listen to some guy who's been in a church since he was a baby, who has no clue what it's like (examine the paradigm of the fish) to think differently.

All of the atheist and agnostics I have met in person, have maybe skimmed the bible with an agenda to looking to find errors, but they have never studied the bible with and open mind. I assure you, I've been to quite a few of these sites and I'm convinced, they are all hypocrites. Why?

1. Atheists and Agnostics (more atheists than agnostics) start their argument with the presupposition that there is no God. which is contrary to the actual reason why atheist and agnostics have so many beefs with theists, because they will only presuppose that God does exist. It's downright hypocritical, I cared about my own self, that's why I did my research (with an open-mind) and conducted my interviews (objectively) and concluded that it is impossible for God not to exist, and yes I did it all under the presupposition that God did exist (for example: Since God exists, then why....?), which at the time I started seemed very foolish.

2. I try to keep up to date on all the debates and I've never heard anybody get owned as much as dawkins, he's chief of all hypocrites...McAlister just destroys him and makes it evident the true hypocrite he is behind his beliefs.

3. Atheists and Agnostics (again, more atheists than agnostics) are hostile people when it comes to christians, The shear fact that you hate Jesus so much is proof enough against man's goodness, because as much as I could not understand or fathom Jesus actually being resurrected when I was an atheist, I could never point out a single instance of Him doing something immoral. So I could say "see, he is just as bad as me!", never. He never did anything wrong to you, even if His promises were infact lies or myths, it still would not justify your hatred (do they also hate their parent's who told them about the tooth fairy), in that, He still meant you well. It's all hypocrisy and deception.

If there is even one among you, who would dare to call this amazing God out, to see if He is real, I challenge you hypocrite, to unplug yourself from the yay or nay sayers around you and search out the One who has claimed to have created you! See how much opposition you will get, if it is a lie and all men know it, why then won't they allow you to come to your own conclusion that it is a lie? They will not, they will mock you, they will try their best to talk you out of it, they will distract you and they will ridicule you, and this also proves that it is the truth, because why will man who doesn't care about you, go to such extreme lengths just to shield you from?! Either it's something he's terrified of or something that is extremely valuable and he's hiding it, the word of God is both! You owe it to yourself, if it's not true, then so what...the only thing you still have to lose is your uncertainty!

I am sure that my stay here will be 'hospitable', and I am always up for a challenge as long as it is still given in mutual respect.


take care.

marmalade

Technically, atheists are anti-believers in reference to God.

What you say is probably true just as its probably true that most believers read the bible with their preferred bias. This is just human nature.

False. Only atheists start with this presupposition.

Open-mindedness and objectivity are some of the highest values of an agnostic.

I don't have much opinion of Dawkins. I only recommended his site because it has many intelligent atheists and agnostics. I even know of an intelligent Christian there who might give you a run for your money.

To tell you the truth, you're sounding kind of hostile at the moment... or at least highly combative.

I don't hate Jesus.

It depends on your definition of immoral. Some of the sayings and actions of Jesus don't stand up to modern morality.

How does one call God out? Is it like a Western gunslinger showdown?

I have searched and I have had many insights and experiences of faith, but it doesn't stop me from continuing to question.

There is much more at risk than uncertainty.

If you want mutual respect, then back off of the hardcore preaching and name-calling.

trufbetold

[quote=marmalade;20091]amazing, that was the first time I ever heard, the term anti-believer by an agnostic. Atheist say there is no God, Agnostics say, I don't know if there is a God, in either case, how can you believe on something that you don't believe, so to speak. You are both "non-believers".


Aha! human nature, you say? Well, that doesn't matter anyway, atheist will not presuppose that God does exist, however I have done both. I sorely disagree, human nature is bound totally within the limits of perception, however there is only one truth, and everybody's perception is not right. Regardless of any of this, the bible is clear: nobody can chose God, only God will have mercy and draws those whom ever He will. Maybe then, this message is not for you, in either case, this still proves the word of God is the only correct perception.

Sure I'll give you that, most people that start with this presupposition are atheist or existentialist. Consider this though, a few agnostics I have met use the exact same atheist rebuttals which as you've intevitably guessed it start with "God can't exist, because if He does....".

How can open-mindedness or any kind of mindedness for that matter even be in an agnostic's vocabulary? Even the word agnostic is from the greek word agnosis, which means ignorant and is often used to describe a fool, google it sir, I'm not making a jest at you.

Everything that glitters is not gold, I have several dozen books I read from "intelligent christians"authors, but I refuse to make a further comment on this term until you explain what you mean by it.


You'll have to pardon me, I have been known to be in the flesh sometime, with that said, if what I am telling you or anybody wise enough to read this the truth, and that this is an urgent matter, what does it matter? The truth presented without love is still the truth, discrediting me will not change that. I'm not hostile or combative, I'm presenting you with a genuine testimony from someone who has played on both sides. Aside from the world standing still for a moment, and angel confronting you in a parking lot or God dropping everything He's doing to just to tell you face to face what He has already stated in the Bible or any of these supernatural signs and wonders these atheists and agnostics so desperately need to see with their own eyes (not that anyone would believe you right), I assure you, this will be the only proof you will get.

Correction, your modern 'morality' is still being updated, about 40 years ago LSD was still legal, about 250 so was slavery, what do you know about morality. The truth, if we could call it true at all, is immutable and is not subject to man's perversions.


what is faith?

Your absolutely right on the money with this one! Like what

Sir you just proved my point exactly. I could have been a spammer and you'd be more tolerable. Actually I cannot stop preaching the gospel, it is the truth I tell you.

trufbetold

I've studies over 35 religions, 11 of which are just subcategory sects, there is no salvation in any of their truths any more than me saying my laptop is cheap (which is true) and it causes you to repent. You can learn much truths thru constant observation, but observing any object in life itself doesn't define the meaning or purpose of any or all objects, in other words they are all man made. Religion means nothing more than to bond to something, agnosticism is a religion and so is atheism (atheism more so than agnosticism). If you can believe that you are here for nothing, live as oblivious to purpose as ants, multiply and die as a virus, then surely you have more faith then I.

I don't preach and "acceptable" gospel- naked teenagers exposing themselves on t.v., lindsey lohan, 50 cent; there is your acceptability. I preach what is in the bible, and I stand by all of it's content as faithful and true, not some of it. Your right, it is a regrettable thing to embrace a half truth, so why do we all? Just as you, I doubt the integrity of some compromising Christians, but not Christ, and I am willing to prove (as I have several times) that the Bible is CONTRADICTION PROOF. And even if and when I do this by the grace of God, I'm willing to bet that you still won't believe. It doesn't matter sir, I'm doing what the Lord has placed on my heart, as much as you think I am blind suppose for a minute that it is you and listen, the witness that you are being presented with is the truth, whether you accept it or not, I preach it anyway because you will have to give an account for this truth and what you did or didn't do with it. I didn't do this to myself my friend (I was a stinkin' atheist!).

So start a thread, post the link here, put a so called bible contradiction in it or as many as you like, it is either a contexual error or and exegetical inexactitude, it's contradiction proof.

marmalade

I can have negative reactions to strong theists, strong atheists, and strong agnostics. My views fit most closely to weak atheism meaning I neither deny God nor deny the possibility of knowing God. A quote by Jung that could apply to me:

"I could not say I believe — I know! I have had the experience of being gripped by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God."

I'm a non-believer in the Christian God, but a strong atheist is a believer. Its just that the strong atheist actively believes God doesn't exist and hence is an anti-believer in reference to theism.

Obviously, though, I'm not a non-believer about everything. I do believe or highly suspect a greater something beyond me. I'm only doubtful when it comes to specifics.

I don't know about the Bible being clear on this matter, but I like this kind of idea. Nobody chooses God nor chooses a specific vision of God. I might go so far as to say even God doesn't choose because God simply is like a force of nature simply is.

There are two possibilities. Some people claiming to be agnostic may not actually be agnostic. And some people who are agnostic also are atheists.

Etymology doesn't directly say anything about the contemporary common use of a word. I've recently been studying the various meanings of this and related words. This is my favorite article on agnosticism:

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ticgnostic.htm

I only meant that he was well-read and knew his material in detail.

Its fine. I don't mind a little heated debate. I agree that in a sense(different from what you mean for sure) its an urgent matter. I wasn't trying to discredit you. I can be critical sometimes, but I didn't mean to imply that your perspective has no validity. I'm sure your experience feels real and true to you.

What I mean by faith is something distinct from belief or at least specific beliefs and based on experience. Faith is more of an intuitive insight into reality and possibility. Faith is non-rational but isn't irrational because it doesn't refute or conflict with rationality.

I'm assuming that "Like what" is a question. If so, I suppose there are many answers. There are all kinds of things involved in this world(individually and socially) without considering the next world. I gave a good answer to this somewhere else on this forum.

What was your point that I proved? And how did I prove it?

I wouldn't necessarily be more tolerable of a spammer if they came on as you have. But a spammer is unlikely to present themselves as you have. A spammer wouldn't preach, and they'd probably stop after the first post.

Would you mind saying something more about how you came to your beliefs? I'd be interested in your personal experiences. What caused you to look into religion in the first place?

greywolf90

what makes you believe christianity is the "one truth"?

you talked about how they (atheists/agnostics) are not open minded towards religion, but this goes both ways. do you honestly think that christians are open minded? i've never heard of a church where its members are allowed to question or argue their beliefs (as a christian you are meant to have strong faith without any doubts, which some call "blind faith"). in my opinion, you do not sound any more opin minded than the agnostics.

as for bible contradictions, im sure there are many who can give you lists of specific verses, so i'll just give you a general contradiction. what about the fact that there are 4 different versions of jesus' life in the new testiment. obviously they disagreed with eachother, otherwise there would only be one needed. one example of disagreement is jesus' geneology: Matt and Luke give different versions. abraham to david are the same, but david to joseph list different people.

also, if mary gave birth as a virgin, than jesus was not related to joseph and therefore, not related to david. and what were jesus' last words before he gave up the ghost? i doubt you can answer when there are three different versions of it.

now which makes more sense: that the bible was written by an infallable god or by men?