trufbetold

I totally understand your why this has upset you, consider this. Many people claim to know Christ, I am not denying that you knew about Christ in a religious sort of way, but Jesus prophecies to the unbeliever "[but] I never knew you". I'm not judging you based on the strictness of my personal beliefs, I am judging you based on the explicitness of God's word. Truthfully, at some point this is hard for all christians, to accomplish not to accept. What are you saying is that you were saved, God wrote your name down in the book of life and you changed your mind, so he turned the pencil over and scratched you out? Not so.


Will all due benevolence to you sir, Judas Iscariot could have made the same claim as you. There were multiple people (not just the disciples) that followed Jesus until He said "Unless you eat of my body and drink of my blood, you have nothing to do with me." and from that the bible says "and many people stopped following Him after that saying". The more truth that is evident the less inclined it will be that you'll want to know it, unless you are a lover of the truth. Let's not make this about me and my perspective, but what does God's Word have to say about your departure.

This apostasy is all throughout the NTand OT , Jesus gives the parable of the Sower in Luke 8, 4 types of people came in contact with the word of God, 1 of them even recieved the word with great gladness, but he lacked a root so over time he quit (because he really wasn't in the faith), only one person bore any fruit from the word of God.

The bible is also clear that who God chose to have salvation will hate sin, and although they may fall again, they are certainly not comfortable in it, but that's besides the point. In reference to you, the bible is clear that those people who God chose to have salvation, are truly saved and remain that way. Why? Because God gives men the Holy Spirit which shapes and molds mens hearts to conform men to the image of Jesus Christ, that is the ultimate purpose of a christian, it's not to just go to church and sing a million hymns (Romans 9:16). The people who God choses, they simply cannot resist God calling them into salvation, repentance and fellowship (Philippians 2:12-13)(John 1:12-13). There is and there would still be a burning desire to be in God's presence and to fellowship with Him. That's salvation! Not the ritualistic approach of just walking the walk and talking it, but to have a actual realistic and rational relationship with Jesus Christ. At this point I'm only speculating that all this sounds like foolishness to you, another proof your not saved, just as if I were to salute you with the vulcan "live long and prosper" hand sign, and you were to just flip me the bird, that's proof that your not a trekkie.

greywolf90

i do not think you are foolish, these are your beliefs. i'm only trying to explain my beliefs to you. "That's salvation! Not the ritualistic approach of just walking the walk and talking it" i think you misunderstand me, i was a very religious person. the whole point of my last post was to explain that i wasn't just some person raised in a christian family, who went to chuch, and labled themselves christian. i honestly and truely believed in these things, and like i said earlier, i had no intention of leaving christianity. i understand that you believe i would have never left if i truely believed, but is it fair to say that i was never a christian? you yourself say that you were a former atheist, but what if the atheists here all said that because you converted to a religion, then you were never a true atheist. and a true athiest would never have converted. just because someone one day changes to a new belief, doesn't mean that their previous belief never existed. for all you know, you may one day decide to go back to atheism, or try agnosticism or a different religion. you may think, "i would never do that," but that was what i thought.

"but Jesus prophecies to the unbeliever "[but] I never knew you"... What are you saying is that you were saved, God wrote your name down in the book of life and you changed your mind, so he turned the pencil over and scratched you out? Not so."

what i was saying is that if you went back in time a few years and spoke to me then, how would you be able to proove that i was already not saved. how would you tell this boy that had very strong faith, that he would one day be among the unbelievers. peter himself told jesus that he would never deny him, and yet he did. because peter had strong faith in jesus, he thought it would be impossible for him to deny it, the same way i thought it would be impossible for me, and you think it would be impossible for you (i assume). the only difference is that unlike peter, i am not sorry for it. in my belief, this is not a sin; i am only searching for god's truth. i am still interested in what you think my reason was for leaving. if you don't care just let me know.

Skepticologist

He doesn't care what your reason was for leaving. And the reason he'll give for why you weren't anointed by the holy ghost, as he claims to be, is that you never completely turned your life over to god, according to jesus christ's teachings.

And you and I know that's exactly right. Neither of us could ever quite come to the point where we were comfortable with abandoning reason and logic sufficiently to embrace a religious system that made no sense to us. Having all the answers was simply not worth leaving behind our ability to ferret out truth through deductive reasoning.

Expecting to win an argument, through the application of logic and reason, with someone who has discarded both so completely, is futile.

__________________
"I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of."

Clarence Darrow

sherrib

trufbetold:
I think that the fact that you are spending so much effort and time on this forum is evidence of a need to convince people, including yourself, of your belief system. My experience has been that the more scripture someone throws at me, the more insecure the thrower is spiritually and emotionally. This is not meant as an insult, merely my honest perspective drawn from personal experience.

trufbetold

This is just silly, and "everything you say turns to glue and sticks to you." Where is the effort? I haven't even been here since like before thanksgiving, you mean the fact that because my approach is so thoroughly done that it is very unlikely for a few misguided "non-disbelievers" to give me a run for my money with some poorly concieved notions about the word of God. If you don't want the truth don't listen seeing as how as an agnostic, you are sort of unqualified to define it yourself. I once thought I would never get saved, now I have a strong foundation in the truth, the truth that matters, for that I am not at all sorry.

trufbetold

Then since you are more familiar with why he left, why don't you clarify it for me? There are several reasons why people may leave the church. In the book of Hebrews, the whole thing addresses Jews who after being persecuted by other jews converted back to judaism, warning them to not miss the "rest" that God has been promising them all along. People quit because, the miss the sin that they used to enjoy guilt free without all those "rules" as they put it, as if they will be happier without them. And yes, people quit because they haven't surrendered their life over to God, also people have fallen away because they really haven't come to grips with how sinful they truly are and never really knew what they were even saved from.


There is your answer right there, you think you have something God doesn't have. You have despised the Lord God and have never known Him. You will have your reason and your logic, which both I have demonstrated to you undeniably in this same thread, keep it, it still hasn't drawn you to a conclusion of who or what your purpose is here on this earth right now. It hasn't even allowed you to make a decision that won't be second guessed on who God is if he even exists, and if it did, you certainly wouldn't be an agnostic. I don't know how you can draw so many false conclusions about christianity. There is no such thing as "blind faith". Faith is a rational decision my friend, just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. It could however mean, you don't have the senses to for it to make sense to. So keep your reasoning, it will never offer you any security.

NotConvinced

Curious, who did you interview and why?

NotConvinced

Same persuasion? No. I find it quite ironic that Atheists are a bit more similar to Christians than Agnostics. Think of a spectrum of belief. Christians are on one end, believing in only one very specific God, only one way to heaven, with 10 specific commandments, and many detailed characteristics. Atheism exists on the other extreme side, believing in no gods, no heaven. Consider Agnosticism as in the middle....think of it this way, and it's atleast a start to distinction.


I felt some of the same push, to witness to my "own people," to try to help Christians see the light and the truth that I see in agnosticism. The difference is, my religious beliefs don't involve the active "forcing" of said beliefs on others, whereas Christian beliefs do.

All of them? I believe you would find it more interesting to meet an agnostic in person, who doesn't center their own religious beliefs around Christianity. I also believe, that going down the road of calling people hypocrites, is quite circular, as everyone contradicts some actions and thoughts with others, to not do so, would be quite inhuman. I've studied the Bible, and found it interesting, useful in everyday life, and ultimately a dead end with relation to my own religious beliefs. I've believed at one time, stubbornly, that the contradictions were too many and too damning to the religion as a whole. I also believed at one time, that there were perfect explanations as to why contradictions might seem to appear...as it was a book ultimately written by man, an "imperfect creation," whose own flaws were mimicked in his writing. I have used both as a means to an end in pursuit of religious truth. I now see the entire situation for it is, I transcend the argument and deem it meaningless.


While you're again incorrect about grouping agnosticism with atheism, you touch on an idea that relates to my last point. Presupposing that God exists, I can come up with a correct answer to any question asked about God or Christianity. I could come up with reasons for everything, why everything is the way it is. I could defend it to perfection. I could also do the opposite, and presuppose God does not exist, and tell you why everything is the way it is, even with regard to man's creation of religion to help him deal with his own fear of death, the belief in an afterlife to help him cope with said fears and so on. I've indeed been down both of those roads, see the patterns that arise, and now transcend them as well.

I could tell you how this point is useless, how the ability of one man to out argue another is absolutely pointless with regard to the truth. So and so beat so and so, so that such and such belief is better than this such and such belief. I could tell you that, but you already know that don't you?

I'd first correct you by taking the "and Agnostics" out of the statment. I'd then point out that overall, the hostility is reveresed, atleast here in the US. Atheists are one of the most discriminated against groups in the US today. In the 70s, about 75% of the public said they'd refuse to vote for a gay president, now it's only 33%. However currently about 50% of the public says they'll refuse to vote for an atheist president. It's funny, gay people have trouble simply trying to get married, but underneath, atheists are discriminated against more than gays are.

I've challenged him, I'll let you know when I hear his response.



Ultimately, with regard to religious belief, to each his own, and to those who would disagree with even that, may you be shunned and ignored by those who would seek out the truth for themselves.

neverforever

ooo i like this statement ive never heard a Christian say this one.

Now i could be wrong but i thought you should never challenge god.

__________________
If i talk to god i don't know if he is listening ...
I'm talking to myself because no one else is listening..

marmalade

I agree that this isn't a normal Christian statement, but this idea of challenging God exists in the Judaic tradition. The most obvious example is Job. I've always liked this idea and I've wondered why the Christian tradition has largely dismissed it.