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Old 09-15-2007, 09:52 PM   #1 (permalink)
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For the truth I guess.

Fairly recently, something in me has become intrigued by that most elusive question which most of us are probably here to discuss. And while I am definitely improving my learning and reducing my previous levels of ignorance... answers are not yet entirely forthcoming. I don't know if this sort of thing interests many of you but I feel I should begin with my 'story so far'. If not, then don't read on I guess, but hopefully my story might be familiar, therfore of worth or interest, to some. If you hadn't noticed, this next bit is very long as it turned out being a life story so far. But please, bear with me.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Youngest of three, 1 older sister and one brother, I was raised in what is best described as a Christian yet open-minded family where we were ancouraged to think for ourselves and ask questions. My mother is now (and for as long as I can recall) a devout Christian. I believe it was in fact my Christening and the fact the minister requested my mother take religion more seriously before he would perform the ceremony which gave her faith real meaning, purpose and seriousness. My father, a skeptic who to all appearances seemed to play along and was faithful in morals but honest in beliefs. Odd? Maybe, but not to me.

So I spent some time in church when I was younger. I would play in school concerts in church in high school, but generally speaking I don't think I ever gave it that much thought. I was skeptical - but played along. At least that's how I see it now. Science was always of great interest to me, especially the deeper things such as the beginning of the universe, time travel and so on. I also became quite a fan of fantasy literature (e.g. Raymond E. Fiest, Tolkien, D&D etc) and remain so to this day.

When I was 18 I met my wife and we first got together. Neither of us were especially religious, but we both half-heartedly believed in a God and had a strong sense of 'moral law'. We were married within 2 years and began a family. I don't regret a moment of our marriage or family raising, to this day.

My Wife and my Mother, thanks goodness, always got on very well indeed. At some point after we got married, I believe after our first child was born but before the second, my wife began going along to church with my mother. Gradually she became an equally devout christian, and remains so to this day.

At times I found this rather hard to deal with, especially as my wife also had (although unknown to either of us - we just thought she was a bit depressive and scatty) Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, which would frequently become associated with her religious belifs (e.g. she would insist certain objects must be thrown out because she had irrationally associated a blasphemus or other unpleasant thought with that object and therefore could not bear to be near it. sometimes, this was very hard to handle. Especially if it was a valued object.). While the OCD exacerbated things somewhat, my main problem was the sudden zeal and strength of belief she held. She would whisper prayers to herself (another effect of OCD in fact, but I didn't know that at the time and neither did she) and seemed obsessed by her newfound religious tendencies. Some of it seemed ludicrous (including one example of apparent faith healing where a church friend of hers 'laid her hands on her' to heal her depressed (OCDed) mind). Anyway things were never insurmountable, I loved and love her and put up with these things when they happened, helped her through them as best I could and generally we went along with life.

I would not let our children be Christened. For a start I wasn't enough of a believer to make the necessary promises. I also didn't, and still don't believe in indoctrination - which in my view is what Christening is all about. If it isn't that - then its being undertaken without integrity and/or understanding. Or my own understanding is wrong. We had them 'dedicated', which I guess is a watered down version. I don't recall the specifics but my wife wanted to do something, and I felt comfortable with it at the time.

Eventually she was medically diagnosed with the OCD and got the proper treatment and therapy. She is now much much improved and while she has occasional minor relapses, it doesn't affect our lives to any great extent and things are much better. But I went on half-heartedly playing along (sounds familiar ?), she went on believing and being a devout Christian. She would take our eldest to church, and still does. Our youngest seemed to lose interest and tends to stay home with me on Sunday mornings. So our eldest recently requested and recieved her Baptism while our youngest remains largely unaware and probably uninterested. Coincedentally, our eldest is female and our youngest male - full circle? Or at least the seeds of it. I digress...

Which brings me to my more recent beginnings to search for my own answers. Obviously when I asked questions my wife has little trouble giving me answers from her Christian perspective. But I never really challenged things that much. I maintained in my mind that God probably existed, as did Jesus, but didn't really buy the whole afterlife, miracles, raised from Death thing. Jesus was probably just a smart teacher who could perform impressive feats of illusion or insight, I thought. I was very skeptical about any son of God theories.

Then I read, of all things, a Brief History of Time. An odd book to begin a spiritual journey in someone who always took a scientific approach. I interpreted within a lot of Hawking's book an acceptance that there was actually room for a Creator, somewhere, although he seemed skeptical about his interaction in our daily lives and remained pretty neutral on the matter overall. Nevertheless this book that raised the deepest questions on sceince, somehow, also raised in me the deepest questions about faith.

So on I went, and read Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion'. My personal conclusion? Very convincing to those hearing what they wanted to hear. To those who opposed his ideas, probably deeply offensive because of his apparently condascending attitude. And to me - very interesting, and asking a lot of the right questions and addressing my own concerns. But I knew replies had been written, and somehow felt... It just can't be that simple or religion would never have lasted this long, and I wouldn't still be seeing minor holes in his arguments.

Next up came "God, Time, and Stephen Hawking" (don't recall the author but he was an established sceintist and Christian) and "Doing away with God?" by Russel Stannard, a leading scientist and Christian. Despite being written before Dawkins' books, they actually answered a lot of the problems he posed. I then read, on my wifes advice, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel - which I thoroughly recommend to any Christian orientated skeptics such as myself. More recently I have read "The Language of God" which I strongly recommend to anyone looking to harmonise Faith and Sceince. Yep - it is possible.

And that's pretty much where I am. I'm probably not a lot closer to physically making my mind up - the score is probably not that far from 50:50 on each side, although that score will priobably be a lot more fluid as my journey progresses. But I can more clearly see the things standing in my path to a decision. Namely:

1. What about other religions? Why Christianity? My wife acknowledges she knows little of Islam or Hindu or Buddhism. So I have challenged her that we should seek out more information on those, because no open minded intelligent person should exclude the other options purely because one plausible option has been presented, and others revealed only to those raised in different circumstances. If her faith in Christ is well founded she has nothing to fear, and much to gain if it helps me to reach the same decision she has. Or maybe it will change things for both os us, who knows? Are the other religions as well supported by history, sceince and archaology as well as Christianity seems to be?

2. I have a natural inclination to doubt anything I do not understand or have very good evidence for. I thought quantum Physics sounded like a load of claptrap until I really read into it. I still don't really understand it (not many really do without true diligent study) but I do understand what it has given us (the silicon chip among many other technological advances) and accept that while it boggles the mind it must have a firm basis of truth and real-world experience behind it.

3. I do not view open Atheism as an option unless I find very convincing arguments in that direction. Partially I suppose because it could cause serious problems for my marriage unless the arguments are convincing enough to persuade my wife. While I have asked her to read Dawkins' book, and she agreed, I'm not sure she will be in much of a rush as the few excerpts I have read her probably felt deeply offensive to her. But also partially because while the evidence for God is not conclusive - it's not conclusive either way. At least not to me. By its very nature and definition, a supernatural god seems (to me) both unproveable and impossible to disprove.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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If you read all of that, thankyou and Well Done.

I hope to some it might prove a shared experience at least in part. I am certainly hoping to find in these forums people with a similar outlook and some shared experiences, as well as those with very different outlooks who might enlighten me. And also that we might help each other in some small way.

Partially I am now looking for advice on where next best to tread. I would like to see books similar to "The Case for Christ" for Islam, Buddhism (although it seems to me Buddhism is actually compatible with other religions, not being necessarily a religion in itself) and Hindu. Plus any other unmentioned religions which might crop up.

Or just for people to share ideas with. Specifically I have found Og's posts to be of particular interest, and it is also nice to see skeptics and believers alike engaging in constructive discussions.

Thanks again for reading, please do let me know what you think. Either in PM, or by posting. I'd really appreciate it.

Cheers.
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hello and welcome. Very nice introduction. I look forward to your participation.

There are some points I would like to discuss; agnosticism, atheism, and knowledge.

I am still digesting and will respond later. Enjoy the forum.
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:58 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Well, I'm about to fall asleep being as I've been everywhere and back today, but I will make time to read your post later. In the meantime, welcome to the forum!
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Old 09-16-2007, 05:27 AM   #5 (permalink)
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"faithful in morals but honest in beliefs"...I like this snippet. I read an essay, recently, where the author believed that God appreciated honesty over conformity. Good stuff.

My wife and I have an almost identical relationship as you and yours. It has been challenging at times. Especially in regard to our children.

I found the bit about OCD very interesting. My wife was perscribed an anti-depressant by her OB/GYN at nearly the same time she decided to become devout.

Anyway, that was quite an introduction. See you in the threads!
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:05 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Well, I'm glad to find I'm not alone and that my whole story was of interest to some people.

It' not that things don't work as they are - they do. Heck they worked for my parents too - for 4 decades and counting! So providing everything else is strong, I know it can work. Even so, I am hopeful of finding some better answers that it might ultimately bring us closer together.

If you have any questions about anything I posted, feel free to PM or email me. I'm happy to share my experiences with those who are interested and might benefit from hearing them.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Hello, Searcher. Your account convinces me that we've traveled very similar paths, with the exceptions that my christian parents were anything but open-minded about their beliefs, and that, apparently, I was at the point you are now some 15 years ago. I won't bore you with the details. Instead, I prefer to cut to the chase and address the specific issues you're now considering.

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1. What about other religions? Why Christianity? My wife acknowledges she knows little of Islam or Hindu or Buddhism. So I have challenged her that we should seek out more information on those, because no open minded intelligent person should exclude the other options purely because one plausible option has been presented, and others revealed only to those raised in different circumstances. If her faith in Christ is well founded she has nothing to fear, and much to gain if it helps me to reach the same decision she has. Or maybe it will change things for both os us, who knows? Are the other religions as well supported by history, sceince and archaology as well as Christianity seems to be?
My departure from christianity involved more than its incongruence with the available history, science and archeology. I discovered some basic contradictions within bibical teachings that I never could square. And while I'm far from being a religious scholar, a perfunctory review of other world religions revealed similarly troublesome quandaries.

You mentioned appreciating Og and his viewpoints. I share your appreciation. He's way beyond me intellectually and in terms of his knowledge, but one thing we share is a deep appreciation of the writings of Joseph Campbell who was, until his death in 1987 a professor of comparative mythology at Sarah Lawrence College. In terms of where to go next in your pursuit of the truth, I can't recommend anyone more highly.

I suggest you start with The Power of Myth, which is a transcription of a 13-week series of interviews by Bill Moyers on PBS in 1986. It will give you a good overview of where Campbell was coming from (which is that all religions are simply mythological systems). If you're still interested after that, Campbell published a definitive 4-volume collection titled The Masks of God which delves much more deeply into mythology and its power.

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2. I have a natural inclination to doubt anything I do not understand or have very good evidence for. I thought quantum Physics sounded like a load of claptrap until I really read into it. I still don't really understand it (not many really do without true diligent study) but I do understand what it has given us (the silicon chip among many other technological advances) and accept that while it boggles the mind it must have a firm basis of truth and real-world experience behind it.
Quantum physics makes sense of a lot of things that would otherwise be considered mysteries. Although, just as I'm no religious scholar, I'm also no expert on quantum physics, it comes as close as anything I've encountered to achieving congruence between science and philosophy.

But, while I applaud your insistence on having "good evidence" for what you believe, I find it incumbent on me to warn you that, in terms of my personal experience, you will never have empirical evidence available to answer all your questions. I've made my peace with that absence of answers, but you may have a tendency to fill in the blanks with religion.

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3. I do not view open Atheism as an option unless I find very convincing arguments in that direction. Partially I suppose because it could cause serious problems for my marriage unless the arguments are convincing enough to persuade my wife. While I have asked her to read Dawkins' book, and she agreed, I'm not sure she will be in much of a rush as the few excerpts I have read her probably felt deeply offensive to her. But also partially because while the evidence for God is not conclusive - it's not conclusive either way. At least not to me. By its very nature and definition, a supernatural god seems (to me) both unproveable and impossible to disprove.
Number 3 convinces me that, in the purest sense of the word, you are an agnostic. You find no evidence to prove the existence of god, yet you find no evidence to disprove it. In other words, as relates to the existence of god, you simply do not know. I hope you'll learn to be comfortable with such a nebulous life view, because my own experience makes me very dubious that I'll discover anything that will sway me either way before I die.

In conclusion, I encourage you to continue to search. Check out everything, but don't lock in on anything that makes no sense to you.
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