debdodd

I'm glad one of us is getting it

I don't see how when it doesn't matter ... you're floating down the lazy river and it doesn't matter other than the inner tube is still inflated, you have sun block on, you're just sunning yourself and letting the river take you down stream ... I just see that differently I guess ... there are no choices being made just floating along where ever the river takes me but should I decide to take a fork in the road ... there are no other predetermination factors as long as I am going down river and I'm still afloat .... I don't know .... I've been turning over and over what you said and I have twisted thoughts around so much its more muddied ....

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

sisterX

Og, I'm back like a verruca who just will not go aways

As a determinist you insist that both determinists and non-determinists are determined to believe what they believe. However, determinists believe self-determinists are wrong and ought to change their view. But "ought to change" implies they are free to change hence they have free will, which is contrary to determinism.

Instead of trying to get everyone to become determinists, why dont you, as a determinist accept that some are determined to believe in God? I'm not saying you shouldn't it just seems un-deterministic.

I agree with you that everything has a cause, no such thing as an effect without a cause. But unlike you I believe the "first cause" is God, therefore, every effect happens with the Will of God.

However this does not mean God controls us like puppets and we do not have freedom. It just means that God knows ALL potential choices and the exact choices. He is All-Knowing, ie He doesnt THINK He KNOWS.

The preordainment of life by God, does not mean we do not have free will. God, works to effect things, He ether allows something to happen or not, He commands things and also teaches and advices us, but he does not force us to do what He would like or dislike.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

Og

There's nothing saying that you can't change anything you want to change. It's just that there's no individual will involved. You desire to change because your environment and your past experience come together to make that the case.

You're thinking on such a small level where determinism is concerned. I understand completely why you either don't get it or flat out reject it.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

harleylove

Does this mean I'm not even close?

sisterX

Og i get it, i just choose to reject it. I find it illogical and it's all based on materialism. Where do you stand on moral responsibility? Certain determinists are asking for changes in the law since we don't have free will. I can just imagine it "i didn't do it! It was my brain". I'm not mocking you og, i just think you have set yourself an impossible task if you want to convince people they don't have free will. But good luck.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

Og

I know you do. You are rational. You just don't see.


I appreciate your question. But if you aren't your brain, then what are you? What does the person mean when they say "I didn't do it"? Justice then becomes about "trimming the hedge" to keep the society healthy (whatever we deem that to mean). With this new powerful realization, you can avoid the pitfalls of righteous judgment and good/evil driven justice. We can avoid classic problems that come with these types of justice that make people end up doing things that they delude themselves to think they are doing in the name of good.

Rationalism takes over instead of fear and desire.

You present the notion that "I" is some poor trapped thing on the inside who is unable to make choices and can't control this sack of meat that they're trapped in. It's the misunderstanding you expressed in your previous post and it's the misunderstanding you just expressed in your most recent one. When you said "no one can change themselves" if I am right, you expressed this similar misconception.

You say "Og i get it" but you continue to illustrate that you don't.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

sisterX

Og i am not my brain. My brain is only a physical mechanism which allows me to be a physical expression of myself. This self is the self that differentiates me from a heap of bricks. The self is what allows me to have self awareness and the ability to imagine the future. It's my spirit, my soul that defines 'me'. When i said "its not me! It's my brain that did it" i was talking about the impact a change of laws would have. But i do get what you are saying, just don't agree with it.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

harleylove

Sister X. I think Og may have a good point concerning free will which is what has sparked my interest. I have experienced it. There are things in my life that I can say I have no choice, being agnostic is one of them. I can readily admit that at one time I would have loved to believe in God mostly because I have an overwheming fear of death. I just can't do it, I have wanted to and was unable to and to believe would have been in my benefit. That's why when people keep saying that we have a choice between heaven and hell I do not believe that we do. What makes you a theist and me an agnostic? Most likely our environment and life experiences. If I was exposed to the same things you were there's probably a good chance that I could be a theist and vice versa. I cannot make myself believe in something my mind won't let me. Just like food or anything else, if I hate liver I cannot chose to just decide that I like it. I love massages, I can't make myself not like them. So I have to ask myself, how much free will do we really have? Either way I still find it interesting and worth learning about.

Og

You seem to have a good grip on a high level expression of what I'm talkin about harleylove. The low level description is that we are the product of the behavior of a machine. Just as a computer on your desk can't make decisions, it can't be possible that our brain makes some uncaused choice. Electrochemistry doesn't give any room for some individual that is not caused.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

harleylove

Og, what are your thoughts on soft determinism?