Og

Also, is "harleylove" referring to motorcycles?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

harleylove

Every time you explain free will it brings me back to what a woman a few years ago told me. She felt that all emotions we feel are not caused by the actual situations we are in but situations in our past. Fear, anger, sadness, happiness etc. That every time we experience sitautions similiar to ones in our past, those same emotions are brought up and until we understand what caused us to feel the way we did when they happened we will continually live in a state of fear(anger, sadness, etc). Whenever we feel one of these emotions to look inside ourselves to try and understand why. She changed my life really, helped me mend a strained relationship with my Dad and let go of all the resentment I had been carrying towards him for years. She was an angel for me, left my life as quickly as she came but changed me for a lifetime in such a positive way.

Thanks Og for all your patience. I may have to go back and read your post again later. I've had a pretty draining day at work today and I think my mind needs a rest. I'm sure I will have more questions for you later so you can put your teaching skills to work. We'll see how much patience you really have.LOL

harleylove

Og, I haven't read your other posts yet but when I posted my reply I saw the one asking about my name. Not to disappoint you but Harley is one of my birds, one of the many loves of my life. You couldn't get me on a motorcycle if my life depended on it.

debdodd

Harleylove .... I sympathies with you .... b/c there are lots of times I don't ask questions on forum for the same reason ... I don't want to appear like an idiot. Isn't that weird 'cause none of us knows each other or are in the true meaning of the word "friends" but yet some of us have this illusion that we want to perpetuate (at least it seems I go).

Og, since harleylove was brave enough to admit it .... I've also gotta admit that I am still having difficulty wrapping my mind around all of this free will stuff. I mean, I read what you say and I get it to a point and then all of a sudden I find myself saying wtf???

Okay, so lets say I'm out for a drive in the country (I really do take random road trips for no reason other than urban exploration) I'm just driving along and I'm in the middle of cornfields and soybeans, I come to a country crossroads ... at that point I have to decide to right, left or go forward on that road but since I am just out for a "see where I'll end up trip" and I have no predestination and am only exploring ... I get to decide which way to go, so at least from the way I see it I do have "free will" because I get to choose which way to go since there is no preset destination ... hope that made sense. When I've done these little road trips the only parameters is that I decide before how long I'm going to be gone ... and divide that in half so I only drive ... which ever way I decide to go for a predetermined amount of time before I have to figure out how where I am and how to get home ...

So there it is ... I still don't understand why I don't have free will ...
Am I just making this more difficult than it needs to be?

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

Og

I think you guys are asking if you have free will when the choices have no big relevance to you?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

harleylove

Og, is there a difference?

debdodd

I think I'm just asking in general ... I know there are things that we don't have free will about but there are others ... soooo ... it would be incorrect to say that in all instances we lack free will ... that free will is an illusion is only "partially" true ... that by making a choice we set in motion a set of events .... often with an unknown out outcome true ....

Am I reading what you are saying wrong or am I just dense? Rhetorical question, not requiring an answer!

__________________
"Ubi dubium ibi libertas."

"We are all lone souls. It pays to know humility, lest the delusion of control, of mastery, overwhelms. And indeed, we seem a species prone to that delusion, again and ever again ....."

harleylove

Thanks Deb, I'm not alone! Hopefully we can learn this together.

Og

So are you saying that you don't understand your motivations for action when you make a choice that doesn't seem important to you (i.e. a random turn on a road trip with no particular destination)?

I'm curious where you think will is involved in your "choice" of a left hand turn. I would say that this is no different from an important decision you would make. You have many small reasons that all add together. You took the last right hand turn.. or maybe you're right handed.. or maybe you want the sun at your back.. or maybe there's something subconscious going on.

Regardless of how you look at it, causality applies. You make a decision for reasons. This is a generalized way of talking about the image from your senses at the intersection getting to your brain. The brain then compares the current state of the brain with the intersection and produces a behavior (i.e. turn one way or the other).

Though you may feel as if you are making a choice, the reality of how your brain works is that a multi-sensory picture is created by your sense within your brain. This representation of the world is compared with your brain's current state (which is a product of ALL previous states of your brain). This includes all of your emotions and memories. Then when your brain has compared the current sensory input with previous sensory inputs, you behave in a given way.

Clear as mud?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

harleylove

Ok, I think I'm getting it. **fingers crossed**

So, Is what you are saying that every choice we make is based on our perception of what is happening. More specifically how our brain processes it and presents it to us and this is influenced by everything we have experienced visually, physically, spiritually etc. Would it be true to say that the same process that shows we don't have free will is the same process that makes every one of us unique and different? Is this why you feel we have an illusion of self?

As far as the input, output, bubble analogy. Do you believe we can change? From the way I understand it, if our perception of the input changes even though the input has stayed the same then it will cause us to output differently. Similiar to what you were explaining in the horrible Spiderman movie(I'm still giggling about that) the son's perception(input) was that Spiderman killed his father so he wanted to kill Spiderman. Even though the input(his father died) hadn't changed, once the butler told him it wasn't Spiderman's fault(input still hasn't changed) his perception changed and so did his actions-helping Spiderman instead of trying to kill him. So same input but 2 different outputs. Whew! Did I make any sense here?

I believe God is the Universe. I'm God as much as you are as much as the sun is or the trees outside. I believe we are all connected and I'm as much a part of the Universe as the Universe is a part of me. I'm completely uneducated when it comes to religion and philosophy, just how I feel. Not quite sure how this fits in but since you mentioned it, I thought I would throw it in.