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Old 07-04-2007, 02:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
VenomFangX
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Default Proving the existence of God

This is actually extremely simple, and I will do so many different ways;

Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice.

This thing that always existed would be considered Eternal, having transcended time, space, and matter, being everlasting, having always existed. If you argue this is impossible, I would argue the contrary; it is impossible for this Eternal 'thing' to not exist, because the alternative is that nothing existed, which could only produce nothing. So, something always existed, and is therefor Eternal.

Now, for something to be Eternal, it can not consist of time, because time must have had a beginning. We exist in a universe of causality, so an infinite regress is impossible; there could not have been an infinite amount of time before right now, because we never would have reached this moment in time. That means time had a beginning, and whatever created time exists without time, beyond time, in timelessness; Eternity.

So, this Eternal Creator, created time, and the universe. This Eternal Creator cleary is extremely powerful, because the energy of the trillions of stars in the known universe were created by this Creator. And obviously, the Creator is extremely intelligent, having created an intelligent being such as mankind and a world in which to populate with it.

__________________________________

Proof # 2

A painting is proof of a painter. A creation is proof of a Creator.

__________________________________

Proof #3

The Bible is unique from all literature in known history; it predicts the future with 100% accuracy. Since God exists beyond time, He sees the entire timeline and is able to tell us what will happen before it happens. Let's look at some prophecy in Jewish scripture that predates Christ by many hundreds of years;

Daniel 9:24 says the Messiah will come, die, and then the temple would be destroyed. Isaiah 49 says this Messiah will be rejected by the nation of Israel, but be a Light to the gentiles (non-jews). Isaiah 53 says this Messiah will be bruised, beaten, and killed, buried with the rich, and then have His days prolonged (ressurrection).

Jesus came, was rejected by Israel, killed, buried with the rich (which was a rarity for convincted criminals), and then rose from the dead. And now, 2000 years later, the entire Gentile world now worships the God of Israel because of this Jesus of Nazareth.

There are hundreds of prophecies in The Bible, this is just one of them that is so powerful, it's undeniable.

________________________________

Proof #4

Science. There is scientific knowledge in The Bible that could not have been known at the time of writing. Allow me to give you some examples.


Can you send forth lightnings, so that they may go and say to you, ‘Here we are? Job 38:35

We only recently discovered that we can use electricity to send messages. The Bible knew this all along.

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. - Isaiah 40:22 (NIV)

We recently discovered that the Earth was circular, and that the universe is constantly expanding. The Bible knew this all along.

He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." - Job 26:7 (NIV)

We recently discovered that the Earth is floating in space. The Bible knew this all along.

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind." - Job 36:27-28 (NIV)

"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight." - Job 26:8 (NIV)

We recently discovered the hydrological cycle. The Bible knew this all along.

He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." - Genesis 15:5 (NIV)

We recently discovered that the stars are not countable by human measurements. The Bible knew this all along.

The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of breath from his nostrils. - 2 Samuel 22:16 (NIV)

We recently discovered that there are valleys at the bottom of the oceans. The Bible knew this all along.


For more proof visit my website at thewaythetruth.com
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Old 07-04-2007, 08:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Yawn. Nice try.

I would love nothing more than to have had a chance to discuss my lack of faith and belief among those who are like minded.

It seems that this forum is inundated with the misguided, however well meaning, that are bent on saving us.

There are several places where the bible is also quite wrong:

1. Paul's views on most everyting, including women.

2. The old and new testatment views on slavery.

3. The treatment of homosexuality as a sin.

Shall I go on? The bible is an interesting relic of historic times.


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We recently discovered that the Earth was circular, and that the universe is constantly expanding. The Bible knew this all along.
Define recently?
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Duck, nearly 2000 after Jesus told us about it. Is that not recent enough? Venom, did the old testament predict the crucifiction of christ? I never knew that!
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Old 07-04-2007, 02:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Firstly, you have 2 choices; either everything came from nothing (which is impossible), or something always existed and created us. You have no other choice.
Who says it came? Why can't it just always have been here?

Quote:
A painting is proof of a painter. A creation is proof of a Creator.
This of course is meaningless as you well know unless you are to assume we are created. Clever with the capital though.

Quote:
There are hundreds of prophecies in The Bible, this is just one of them that is so powerful, it's undeniable.
Show me a prophecy that actually predicts specific events, events that came true. Not a vague, could be taken to mean anything prophecy. Those examples you gave could apply to plenty of things.

Quote:
We recently discovered that the stars are not countable by human measurements.
Oh please. Give me a break.

Quote:
Can you send forth lightnings, so that they may go and say to you, ‘Here we are? Job 38:35
Darth Sidious can send forth lightning from his hands.

Quote:
Can you send forth lightnings, so that they may go and say to you, ‘Here we are? Job 38:35

We only recently discovered that we can use electricity to send messages. The Bible knew this all along.

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. - Isaiah 40:22 (NIV)

We recently discovered that the Earth was circular, and that the universe is constantly expanding. The Bible knew this all along.

He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." - Job 26:7 (NIV)

We recently discovered that the Earth is floating in space. The Bible knew this all along.

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind." - Job 36:27-28 (NIV)

"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight." - Job 26:8 (NIV)

We recently discovered the hydrological cycle. The Bible knew this all along.

He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." - Genesis 15:5 (NIV)

We recently discovered that the stars are not countable by human measurements. The Bible knew this all along.

The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of breath from his nostrils. - 2 Samuel 22:16 (NIV)

We recently discovered that there are valleys at the bottom of the oceans. The Bible knew this all along.
This whole quote is completely ridiculous. Let me tell you some other things the bible said.

1. It said the universe was created in seven literal days.-we recently discovered creating something out of nothing is impossible.

2. It said a talking snake convinced a woman to eat 'forbidden fruit', and thus 'sin' entered the world.-we recently discovered that snakes cannot talk, and that there is no such thing as sin

3. It said a VIRGIN (someone who has not ever had sex) gave birth to a child!!-we recently discovered that virgins cannot have children.

4. It said that child had the ability to perform miracles!-we recently discovered that miraculous events, such as recorded in the bible, are fiction.

5. It said that child 'never sinned' and was killed as a criminal.

6. It said that child CAME BACK TO LIFE after dying!!!-we recently discovered that once people die, they stay dead

7. It said a woman turned into a pillar of salt for disobeying god.-we recently discovered that people don't turn into pillars of salt for turning around

8. It said a massive flood killed every creature on earth except for the ones on a big boat.-we recently discovered that a worldwide flood never happened.

see? two can play this game.

I'm extremely bored of doing this, so I'm done for now. If you come back with more silliness though...grrr!!
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Okay.

Paul's views on most everyting, including women. -Duck

The Bible teaches that in Christ, there is neither male nor female. Women however in the church Paul was addressing were interrupting the church services to ask their husbands questions. That is why Paul told the women to be silent during the services, as we ALL should be, and ask questions later. Also, women can have roles in churches, but the role of leadership should be given preferably to a man. If you find this sexist, you should consider that it was the woman who was deceived by the serpent, not the man.

The old and new testatment views on slavery. -Duck

Slavery is absolutely not cool with God, however it was already one of the biggest parts of the culture at the time. God made provision for this, and added many human rights to the lives of slaves. When we think of slaves, we tend to think of what happened to the black people, but that is simply not the case. 'Slavery' in Old Testament times was akin to having a live-in house maid, or someone who works your fields, mows your lawn, cooks your meals, etc. Did people abuse their slaves? Sure; people to this day abuse their wives and children, too. God made provision for the slaves and gave them rights they never had. God was not saying slavery is good, but that with certain rules it was perfectly fine.

The treatment of homosexuality as a sin. -Duck

Homosexuals are usually not homosexual to begin with. They usually start with normal sexual patterns, and even have a wife and kids. Then they begin watching pornography, or hanging out in the wrong places, and find themselves in the pursuit of lust. Lust, like all counter-fits, never satisfies like love does. So, they go into deeper, and darker perversions, until they reach homosexuality. God designed sex to be between and man and women; if we were all gay, we'd all be dead. Sickness, illness, and family retardation are just a few of the effects of homosexuality; it is not how God intended sex to be. Homosexuality is simply lust, a perversion, with nothing at all to do with love; the true design of God.

Venom, did the old testament predict the crucifiction of christ? -sisterX

Read Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted when He was on the cross. It is a picture of crucifixion, written hundreds of years before crucifixion was even invented!

Why can't it just always have been here? -jaej (refering to the universe)

Read my explanation of the infinite regress. This is a finite universe, and nothing finite can be infinite or eternal. We are clearly created, and even scientists acknowledge that with their 'big bang' theory.

Show me a prophecy that actually predicts specific events, events that came true. Not a vague, could be taken to mean anything prophecy. -jaej

Tyre: A Place For Fishing Nets

The 26th chapter of Ezekiel records a remarkable prophecy against Tyre. This ancient power had opposed God's people of Israel, and against it the prophet, in the name of God, had thundered Divine judgment. The Tyrians were told:

1. That Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, would conquer Tyre (vv. 7-1 1 ).
2. That the city would be made desolate (v. 2).
3. That it would be thrown into the sea (v. 12).
4. That it would become a place to spread nets upon (v. 14).
5. That its maritime supremacy would cease forever (v. 17).

Every detail of this prophecy had complete and wonderful fulfillment.

Few people today know anything about Tyre, so completely was the prophecy fulfilled. But in B.C. 596 when it was uttered, Tyre was the foremost sea power of the ancient world. Strategically situated on the coast of the Mediterranean, in what is now known as Lebanon, Tyrian ships dominated the seas for centuries.

Early in the sixth century B.C., however, Tyre incurred the wrath of Nebuchadnezzar and the rising power of Babylonia. Nebuchadnezzar determined that he would destroy the power of Tyre, and accordingly he marched against the city and besieged it. After a protracted siege that continued for some years, he breached the walls, and the city fell. When the Tyrians saw that resistance was futile, they transferred the bulk of their treasure to an island in their possession, half a mile from the shore. The old city was deserted and from her new water-enclosed fortress Tyre continued to defy her enemies.

Though the original city had been "made desolate" by Nebuchadnezzar as predicted by Ezekiel, the balance of the prophecy had not been fulfilled. Ezekiel (Ch. 26) had declared:

"They shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise; and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses; and they shall lay thy stones, thy timber, and thy dust in the midst of the water ... I (God) will make thee like the top of a rock; thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more ... I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee" (vv. 12, 14,19).

None of this was accomplished by Nebuchadnezzar, though he destroyed the original city. The prophecy spoke of an unnamed power as "they shall do it." History reveals that this was Alexander the Great and his Grecian warriors.

Meanwhile, for almost 250 years, the partly-ruined city of ancient Tyre remained on the mainland, whilst from the island fortress Tyrian power rose once more. Contrary to the requirements of the prophecy the stones, timber and dust of the ancient city had not been "thrown into the sea" as predicted, its site had not been made "bare like the top of a rock", nor had Tyrian power been irreparably broken. On the contrary, the riches of the world flowed through its gates to the east, and Tyrian influence rose once again to its previous eminence.

It must have seemed as though Ezekiel's prophecy had failed. But God is never in a hurry, and delay is but a challenge to faith. At last, Tyre made a fatal mistake. It opposed Alexander of Greece. In their island fortress, protected by their powerful navy, and surrounded by the blue waters of the Mediterranean, the Tyrians could afford to defy his land forces. But Alexander was determined that he would bring Tyre under his control. To do so he had to get at the island fortress, and that meant that he had to build a ramp connecting the mainland with the island across which his soldiers could march.

The stones, the walls, the pleasant houses of the ruins of the mainland city (the one Ezekiel said would be utterly destroyed and never rebuilt) provided him with a means to do this. He ordered that they be thrown "into the sea" (as Ezekiel had predicted) for this purpose. A clean sweep was made of the site, and not a remnant of the city remained. Nor was it ever rebuilt. God had decreed that this would be its fate, and His words were fulfilled to the very letter, though for 250 years every indication seemed to point to the contrary.

Today, the blue waters of the Mediterranean wash over the ruins of Tyre, which has literally become "a place to spread nets upon." Go to the site of ancient Tyre today, and it is possible to see Arab fishermen doing that which Ezekiel predicted they would do 2,500 years ago. Thomson, in his "Land and the Book", writes:

"The number of granite columns that lie in the sea is surprising. The eastern wall of the inner harbor is entirely founded upon them, and they are thickly spread over the bottom of the sea on every side. Tyre must have been a city of columns and temples par excellence . . . Should anyone ask incredulously, 'Where are the stones of ancient Tyre?' . . . they are found spread over the causeway of Alexander, in her choked up harbor, and at the bottom of the sea."

Alexander's attack was successful, and Tyrian sea power was destroyed. No longer did her fleets dominate the seas, no longer were her praises sung in the marts of the ancient world. As a nation she disappeared, never to rise again.

The causeway built by Alexander still connects Tyre's one-time island-fortress with the mainland, but so completely has every vestige of the original city disappeared, that its' position can only be ascertained by the distance measured from the ruins of the fortress. The mighty city of ancient Tyre was completely erased.

But the amazing thing is the detail in which the Bible predicted all this, and the wonderful way in which each point was finally fulfilled. Fallible man cannot predict the future with such certainty and detail, but the Bible does. It shows that this wonderful book can be thoroughly relied upon, and confirms that those prophecies which speak of the second advent of Christ, and the setting up of the Kingdom of God on earth will come to pass, even though the fulfillment might appear improbable to mortal man.

Go here http://guide.discoveronline.org/disc...de07/7sec1.htm
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Jaej those are truely extraordinary events that cannot be explained by natural laws. Kinda like miracles!
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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That never happen anymore if they ever did. No proofy, no believey! Man can not exist on Faith alone... look at the state of the world... what more proof do you need?

The virgin birth thing is wrong though. Frogs, lizards, and now sharks have been proven to be able to become asexual. Was Mary asexual?
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:05 PM   #8 (permalink)
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And here I thought it was Alexander that conquered Tyre.

The OP needs to quit with the dissertations.
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I see....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre%2C_Lebanon
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The virgin birth thing is wrong though. Frogs, lizards, and now sharks have been proven to be able to become asexual. Was Mary asexual?
But not people.
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