harleylove

I know there was a thread similiar to this one but I can't find it.

So, I've been told repeatedly that I have a "choice" to believe or not in God and I choose not to so of course I will suffer the consequences. I don't think this holds true.

I have wanted to believe in God, I mean really really wanted to believe in God and heaven and all that good stuff just for peace of my mind. The thought of being reunited with all my loved ones when I die, absolutely wonderful! Except for whatever reason I just can't.

I can't make myself believe in a definite God(entity with heaven and hell) anymore than I can make myself like the taste of certain foods. So, is believing really about choice or much more complicated?

lauraclay

I think belief is relative. To truly believe something, you think it deep deep down, no doubts, you are 100% sure. In this case, I don't believe in anything. But, if you choose to put most of your stock in one idea, you follow its practices, live by its values, align most of your allegiances with it, then you could also be said to believe in it. The doubtful Christian, therefore, 'believes in God', but may choose to. If strong evidence was shown that there is no God, they may renounce their faith. Which means they probably never believed in the first place. They just chose to.


heh, third time I've posted that today. It's like the theme of the Saturday.

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The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
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The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

Romulus

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The An-Jel

Well if in the end I am stuck with all my relatives in the afterlife then I choose not to believe in anything...

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jaej

You believe praying and reading the bible everyday are prerequisites for going to heaven? Or am I missing something?

Tell me Rom, can you honestly say not a day has gone by in your Christian life where you have not prayed and read your Bible?

And why do you have to seek him? If he loves every person so much like christians claim, why do YOU have to take the initiative? Why not he, simply because he can? If he loves everyone, why send them to hell? Or better yet, why ever send them to Earth in the first place? Why not just create them and stick them in heaven? He's god, right? Can't he do anything?

You are blinded by metaphor, confusing it with truth.

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milligal

I think believing is much more complicated then just making a choice. Anyone who was raised to be religious and then walked away from it would understand that statement. When I was in religion I tried really hard to do all the things I was supposed to-praying many times a day, reading the Bible daily etc. I couldn't fight this overwhelming feeling of distaste for the whole process.

Even a step further my belief in God was a constant question in my mind which I wasn't allowed to speak openly. I just didn't see any proof, I didn't 'feel' the holy spirit and I wondered what am I doing wrong? Finally I realized that I wasn't doing anything wrong, God just wasn't apparent to me. From this conclusion I had to doubt the reality of others. They were always saying God answered my prayer-but I never saw a case that I just had to say 'yep-that was God alright!'

I think people do choose tp believe or not initially, and from this sprouts self fulfilled prophecy. Maybe some are more likely to fall victim to this than others.

harleylove

Well, An-jel now that you put it that way, I'm with you! LOL

Seriously though Rom, I really don't believe that we have a choice. I cannot believe in God for certain because it is just not logical for me to do so. I can tell myself all I want to that I believe but my brain is just not going to let me. I have no control over that. I can't just wake up in the morning decide to pray to god and wip out a bible and all of the sudden be a believer. Besides the bible being a horribly violent book and I still can't understand how anyone can seriously worship God the way he is depicted in it, its just not that easy. Then to be told I'm going to hell for something I have no control over, well, it's just not right.

Milligal, I can tell you too that my husband is an atheist and I'm agnostic and both of my kids believe in God. I had a conversation with them a few nights ago and it went something like this. Me: Do you believe in God? them: Yes. Me:Why? Them: I don't know, because he created us. Me: Can you tell me something about him? Them: He created us. Me: Can you tell me anythng else about him? Them No. Me: Do you believe in heaven? Yes Me: Where is it? They pointed up. Me: Do you believe in hell? Them: Yes. Me: Where is it? Them: They pointed down. That's it, that's all they know and yet they believe. As a child I think it is very unfair and we as parents obviously did not teach this to our kids. I really think that a large part of what we believe as adults is carried over from what we believe as children. My kids don't believe because they had a choice to believe, they believe because an adult who they know and trust told them this as fact. I only hope that as they get older they will open their minds and then decide.

Jaej, you made a very good point but don't you see if we went straight to heaven than God wouldn't have the pleasure of having a world of people exist for the sole purpose of worshipping him. Who would want to miss out on that?

jaej

Seriously. lol

About the way god is depicted in the bible-

In some of the old testament poetry and in some of the major prophets, you read it, specifically the 'so said the lord' parts, and you get the distinct impression that god is a child talking (or at least I did. Maybe that's better than saying you). A very conceited, jealous, selfish, spoiled child, with pudgy hands and bulging cheeks, not sharing his toys..

That's the image that came to my head.

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lauraclay

Exactly. He would burn entire villages, bring horrors on entire nations of people, over comparatively trivial 'sins'.

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

sisterX

True we do not have to believe in everything that exists or has a potential for existence. But in order to understand why is it necessary to believe in God, we must first understand the true meaning and implication of 'belief in God'.

The phrase, 'belief in God' implies the recognition of and the reciprocation in the relationship that one has with his creator, provider and sustainer. It is not the mere existence of something, which makes it necessary for us to believe in it. It is actually our relationship with that 'something', which exists, which makes it necessary for us to believe in it. There are two steps this 'belief'. First, the recognition of the relationship, if any, which exists between the 'something' that exists and ourselves. Next, the acknowledgement of the responsibilities that become binding upon ourselves in the relationship with the 'something' that exists.

It is clear that is it not necessary to 'believe in' a stone that may be lying under a tree in the jungles of Africa. Just because we don't have any thing to do with that stone - a complete lack of relationship between the stone and ourselves and a lack of any requirement of reciprocation on our part - we do not 'have to' believe in the existence of the stone, even if it does, in fact, exist.

However, if I was told by a reliable source, that one of my great grandfathers had hidden a treasure under a particular stone, under a particular tree, in a particular jungle of Africa; this information would suddenly develop a relationship between me and the stone lying under one of the trees in the jungles of Africa.

Now, if I believe the information to be correct, I am likely to plan a number of actions, as a response to the relationship that has suddenly developed between me and the stone. All these actions would actually stem from my 'belief in' the existence and the placement of the stone and the information that I have received about its 'relationship' with me.

'Belief in God' stems not only from the fact that He exists, but from my realization of the relationship that I have with Him and from my inherent desire to respond to Him in the most appropriate manner.

Therefore, 'belief in God' is not like 'belief' in something, which does not relate to us. On the contrary, it is more like the realization of the fact that the person I live with is my father. This realization, in turn, develops a relationship between me and that person, the appreciation of which requires me to behave with that person in a particular - morally suitable - manner.

Obviously, my behavior with that person is based on my 'belief' that he, in fact, is my father; It is my moral obligation to respond to him in a respectful and polite manner. If, due to some reason, my 'belief' regarding my relationship with that person is altered, it would have an obvious effect on my relationship with that person and, suddenly, there would be a change in the nature of my interaction with him.

God does not merely exist. On the contrary, He is the being, Who has brought me to life; Who provides to sustain my life; Who has bestowed me with all the invaluable blessings that I enjoy in life; Who ultimately controls all the factors, which effect my life; and Who would, one day, end my life. This realization about God - and not merely His existence - is what develops a relationship between me and Him. It is the recognition of this relationship and the desire for the appropriate reciprocation in this relationship, which Islam - as well as other divine religions - term as 'Imaan billah' - 'Belief in God'. Therefore, 'belief in God' is one of the moral obligations, the fulfillment of which becomes incumbent upon man, as soon as he realizes that God is his creator, sustainer, provider and controller.

If God is truly our creator, sustainer, provider and controller, then 'believing in Him' is an obvious requirement of accepting and submitting to one of the most significant truths about this world, about ourselves and about life.

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