Astreja

I don't think that atheists who value empirical evidence would disbelieve in the existence of a god. Speaking for myself, I can acknowledge that something exists but still not like it. And if I don't like it, it's unlikely that I would want to worship it.
Well, my culture does not value submission; quite the opposite. Pride is an extremely good thing in my family tradition.
No, my parents created me. (I do find ancestor worship more palatable and more logical than monotheism, by the way)
That remains to be seen. I do not think it likely that my consciousness will survive the death of my physical body, so "salvation" is simply not a meaningful thing to me.

sisterX

So you dont believe in God because you dont like him?
Can I ask why you dont like him? Has He not given you enough? Did you want more out of life that He has not given you?

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

sisterX

It sounds to me that it's OK for you to have pride, but not for God.
You say pride is a good thing that has been encouraged in your family, but if I say God is also proud, pride is His cloak and He demands that His creation worship Him. You think pride in that sense is a negative attribute.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

Astreja

No, I don't believe because I have never seen any convincing evidence that such a being exists.

To be fair, I have no more evidence for the gods of my own culture (Scandinavia).

I have a very strong dislike of the god described in the Bible and in the Qur'an. I see a lot of threatening, abusive behaviour and very little that I would call good or loving.

As far as I can tell, it hasn't given me anything at all. (See my first note about insufficient evidence). Everything that I have -- And I have more than enough -- I obtained through my own efforts or with the assistance of family or friends. Since early childhood it has been my habit to persevere until I succeed, and my record of successes is quite satisfactory.

No, if your god exists it has as much right to pride as I have.
Your god is free to make such a demand. I will not comply with that demand unless I discover that I actually like the chap. (Which is possible, I admit.) I do hope that it asks nicely instead of demanding.

But I have yet to meet this hypothetical being and am not particularly expecting to run into it in the foreseeable future, as I've seen no trace of it in the past fifty years.

sisterX

Ok well Good luck.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

milligal

I can tell you why I don't like the god you are representing: because he allows people to reprsent him and then do awful things-like wars, child molestation, shunning people (but that's better than the stonings that used to happen).

If I was god I would not claim to love my creations and then sit back and watch them suffer while I had the power to end it-all because I want them to learn a lesson after their ancestors displeased me.

The god that christians serve is not morally consistent (war was okay in the old testament but not in the new, women were allowed to be used as concubines and prostitutes and then in the new testament judged for what they were, Lot got drunk and had sex with both his daughters impregnating them, but is still referred to as a righteous man-should I go on?), nor is this god a lovable character.

So I should spend my whole life feeling guilty that I am a sinner, and indebted because of what Adam and Eve did? No, this does not sound like worship of a god, it sounds like an avenue for people to control other people.

QUOTE=sisterX;10187]So you dont believe in God because you dont like him?
Can I ask why you dont like him? Has He not given you enough? Did you want more out of life that He has not given you?[/quote]

lauraclay

Ok, I see nothing wrong with pride. If you deserve it. And I would say yes, pride, and a love of myself, a value of myself and a worth I believe I have are what keep me from submitting to a God. There are just things about faiths that I can't cope with. I can't possibly give up my will, or my ability to think. Who is God, who I have never met, spoke with, or seen, to tell me what is right and wrong? And who is he to deserve me praying to him five times a day? I'm sorry, but I don't get the point of praying 5 times a day. If God is all-powerful, omniscient, why does he need me to take time out of my day five times to acknowledge him?

__________________

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to.

sisterX

Milligan you are confusing what God has comanded us to do and what as human beings we decide to do. We all have free will that is why we will all be judged on the choices we make.

Lauraclay so you admit it is the submitting part that puts you off rather than you being sincere in your disbelief?
I believe in God and yes I pray five times a day but that does not mean I do not have the ability to think. There are two types of believers in my opinion one will have blind faith maybe because he doesnt have the ability to ponder on certain questions as you mentioned.
There second is one who has pondered until he came to the conclusion that there is no point fighting it anymore.
I am the latter. Before I started practicing Islam, I used to think and think and think litterely every day about God, why does he allow evil to spread, why do he allow humans to kill other human etc etc, then I used to wonder why does he not answer my prayers, why would I go to hell just for not practicing?
Seeking knowledge and reading about Islamic philosophy gave me answers to all those questions. I then realised what being Muslim meant. It meant submitting your pride, realising that I was not here out of my own will but was created by God.
This God who created everything, the earth, the sun, the moon, the whole universe and everything in it, who sustains everything in its order, who has knowledge of everything, who is just as aware of a tiny ant going about its business as he is aware of a human being. This God who has all this power and might and majesty. Why should he not be worshipped?
We as human beings have no problems with worshiping other human beings whether they be film stars or sports stars. Ask youself why people love stars so much, follow them everywhere etc, because they are in awe of them.

I used to think that Islam will lessen my freedom of thinking and acting, but boy was I wrong!
I used to think wearing Hijab will make me less free to express my opinion, people will have preconcieved opinions about me. I wrong about that also.
I used to think praying five times a day will be too much like hard work. Wrong again.
The truth is, I have never felt as free and liberated and outspken and fearless and confident as I have felt since starting to practice Islam.
People listen to what I'm saying rather than thinking about what I look like, what I'm wearing etc.
I still care about how I look but this time its is to please ME rather than please or impress others.
And praying five times a day? I feel it cleanses my mind and soul, its like meditation, water for the soul. And you know what the amount of time I spend preforming my prayers each day, it is not even 1 hour a day and I have 24 hours in the day that leaves me 23 hours to spend doing whatever I please.
Salaat (prayer) relaxes me.

Its an appoinment with the Almighty 5 times everyday, what an honour!

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

sisterX

Again Lauraclay God is free of need, He is not in need of His creation. His creation need Him.
Hearts truely find contentment with the remembrance of God.

__________________
"But as for me (I believe) that He is Allah, my Lord, and I shall associate none as partner with my Lord." Surah Al-Kahf verse 38. Holy Quran

Jacob

If there is a God, he(she) certainly would need us. Maybe God is lonely.

Jacob