But what if there is a God? - Page 9

Og · 06-24-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterX

Cellular automaton is not a physical process og, for goodness sake, cant you do better than that? Of course you cant.

Not a physical process? Celluar automatons are not a process at all. This is like saying that language is not a physical process. Cellular automaton speaks to the physical properties of the behavior of systems where effects of nearby elements are dominant (i.e. such as in the body where a single cell is mostly effected by only nearby cells) and in physical systems such as gasses and whatnot where molecules effect only molecules nearby.

This is how the world works, not some fantasy. It describes real systems in the same way any model works.

This isn't some "single example"... it's a body of mathematics that describes the way the universe works in general. Heh.. but I understand why you feel this way. You don't understand science in the first place.

The universe works by local effects. Forces are inverse square and such. Quantum density functions are bounded or exponentially decay. Cellular automaton is the science of the interaction of systems where local effects dominate.

It is a representation of physical processes in terms of a mathematical formulation. That you don't understand that mathematics is the language in which the universe is expressed is understandable. Most people don't think that it is useful beyond balancing a checkbook.

So continue on with your misconception. There's clearly no communicating with you on this point.

The FACT is that complex systems can and do arise from simple underlying algorithms. Self organization and self ordering or whatever you want to call it.. You will continue to say that this is impossible.. you will continue to be wrong.

milligal · 06-24-2007, 12:49 PM

Sister X-You say it is enough evidence-the laws of the universe and life itself. What you are proposing is a theory and a theory is a hypothesis that has not been proved wrong, that does not mean it has been proved factual either.

Evidence has to stand the test of rigorous questioning, and the trial of trying to disprove it. Instead of your evidence standing this test, you are simply returning to your opinion and getting put out that agnostics are not accepting you at your word. This is not a scientific presentation of the outcome of your scientific method, it is just you picking out something that you like, to try and back your point.

If I'm going to change my whole life and teach my children to change their lives, I'm going to need more than your opinion to base it on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterX

lol george. I wouldn't say such a thing before needing to go and find out. And I have been talking about some of the following point in other threads.

Actually its nothing new its all very well known, but I believe for some people there will never be enough evidence that God exists:

However it is evident that the Laws of the universe and life themselves are enough proof for the existence of God.

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created by natural means. There has never been an exception to the law observed.
The universe exists as energy is a variety of forms such as matter, light, heat, and sound. The logical conclusion for the origin of the universe is that it was created supernaturally. So there must be a God.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that entropy irreversibly increases in a closed system. The universe is experiencing “heat death,” which means it is a closed system that is winding down like a clock inside of a box. Once it unwinds it cannot be rewound. Heat death points to an end point, which means there was a beginning.
How did the universe originate with energy in order to start unwinding? The most logical conclusion is that it originated supernaturally. So there must be a God.

The Law of Biogenesis states that all cells come from pre-existing cells. No exceptions in nature or in the laboratories have been observed.
All living entities exist as single or multicellular organisms.
The logical conclusion is that cellular life originated supernaturally. So there must be a God!

In addition to that, there has been extensive research into the effect of prayer on the recovery of medical patients. Double-blind placebo experiments proved that patients who had prayed and had been prayed for had significantly lower complication rates than those not prayed for in the studies.

And here is another interesting study:
Medical scientists in Syria did some research into the slauhtering of meat in the "halal" islamic way. They slaughtered all animals using the exact same procedure but found that the animals on which at the time of slaughter the phrase "Bismillah Allahu akbar" which means "In the name of God, God is the Greatest" was uttered, there was significant effect not only the calmness and tranquility of the animal but also the quality of the meat and the growth of bacteria and viruses on the carcus. In effect this phrase had a "sterilizing" effect. I watched it on a documentary but i will try and find some published work on this.

sisterX · 06-24-2007, 09:23 PM

Milligal, the power of prayer HAS been proven factual.
According to research conducted at Michigan University, depression and stress are observed to lesser extent in the devout. And, according to findings at Rush University in Chicago, the early death rate among people who worship and pray regularly is some 25% lower than in those with no religious convictions. Another study conducted on 750 people, who underwent angiocardiography, proved scientifically the "curative power of prayer." It was established that the death rate among heart patients who prayed decreased by 30% within a year after their operations.

Astreja · 06-25-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterX

Milligal, the power of prayer HAS been proven factual.

Actually, there's a fair amount of controversy as to whether or not prayer works. This study had rather different results.

The key to a successful test of the prayer hypothesis is strict double-blind controls. Eliminate the placebo effect altogether by ensuring that the recipients of prayers don't know that someone is praying for them.

Og · 06-25-2007, 07:42 AM

"mom's kiss" also has a placebo effect on kids as well.. you saying that mom's kiss is supernatural or that it's the product of a psychological attachment and feeling of safety derived from the relationship the two share?

I wouldn't be surprised if prayer was able to produce powerful health consequences. What is certain is that it has to do with positive thinking and mental health and NOT supernatural causes.

milligal · 06-25-2007, 02:22 PM

I have to agree, there is no evidence that the reason prayer is helpful (assuming the studies are accurate) is because god is answering them or putting his spirit on those that pray. That is the vagueness of religion. It's hard to pinpoint anything that's taught, that cannot be explained two or three different ways...