}SoC{Sumguy

To Faith: although i respect and agree with your veiws for the most part, i am afraid you are arguing this in a very hostile/forceful manner. Remember, the first reaction people have when force-fed something is to spit whatever it is out. honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

regarding Og's first post, i agree completely. I am a christian, and i do not hesitate to say that i beleive deeply in my religion. Beleif is nothing however, unless tested. If one never questions or doubts what it is they hold to be true, how can they ever be secure in their beleif without stooping to being close-minded? How can they even know if they truly beleive, and dont just think a certain way because of prejudices or feelings they may have one way or another?

Some people fear questioning their faith because they think it will weaken them. I however, have found that the more i question, the more i beleive. Einstien had to conduct experiments with his theory of relativity before he beleived it was true, and i beleive we should all do the same.

I think it would be a good habit for Religiousfolks to make lists of reasons why they are wrong, and then examine those lists and ponder them. The same would go for athiests and agnostics, making lists of reasons why God exists. Who knows, if you are right in your beleif or lack thereof, you may be strengthened in your resolve by the experience, and if you are wrong, you may see the error of your ways!

__________________
"And now you've seen his face,
and you know that there's a place
in the sun, for all that you've done.
For you and your children.
You always wanted to beleive.
Just ask and you'll receive,
beyond your wildest dreams.
And you already know how this will end...."

The An-Jel

Nice One Sum!

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

Og

I think it's clear that the God of the west (christianity) is not real. It doesn't even remotely fit with what we know about the reality of the universe. The quasi-deterministic nature of consciousness and the human brain precludes any ultimate concept of good/evil or choice, for that matter.

I don't consider myself an atheist unless it simply refers to the god of the west (yaweh/allah). If that's all that the term applies to, then yeah, I'm an atheist.

As for "reasons why God exists" I can't think of any in reference to the western god who's so inextricably linked to our ability to choose (i.e. judgment after death and such).

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Journeyman

I just read this thread. Is "Faith" for real? Is that really someone who is just having fun or someone who is actually that immature? I know plenty of people like Faith, but why would he/she join a forum that values reason and tact from all sides? Faith, if you are for real, there is no way you are going to convince anyone in this forum with the approach you have taken.

Og

This thread was about defeating faith. I felt it did a pretty good job of showing him that his way doesn't mesh here (or anywhere where people are interested in reality). Instead of banning, just throw light on him And he's since stopped posting for the most part.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

The An-Jel

If you notice though if certain reins weren't put on him first he would have not 'seen the light' Og.

You know people like Faith need a certain amount of "physical" force needed plying before he suddenly snapped out of it. It's a shame anything like this or even what has been done needs to be that way.

Not to give politics any kind of credibility but George W Bush has given Christianity a sense they never had before and it's a shame that even that gives people like Faith the 'right' to blindly attack people. Stereotypes like politicians, actors, sports heroes, and the like (amazing how they go hand in hand) can inspire such inhuman behavior.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

stillcrazy

I believe faith has it's place in our everyday life, but not when it comes to the christian faith as they put it, because it is asked that you leave common sense and thinking for yourself in a box somewhere.
Now in the christian faith it boils down to " If You don't believe in Jesus Christ as your savior " your going to hell.

This will be old hat but it does have significance..
I am a Husband, father, grandfather.
I truly love my family with all my heart, so if there was something of dire consequences that they needed to know that it would lead them to suffering for even a moment, much less for eternity, I would make sure I told them myself, face to face.
I would in no way leave it for chance and tell someone else to tell them, as I would want to make it perfectly clear.
So if god is omni-everything and he loves me, he could do the same thing, and it would be as easy for him to do so as it would be for me to drive to my family and talk to them..
So for me, I think it's one of two things..
We are doing nothing that will lead to eternal consequences that is detrimental, or there is no god...
Jack

jaej

I know. I've said that before to numerous people at my church, but they just tell you it's god's fault. They say he doesn't send anyone to hell, they choose to go there by not believing jesus was the messiah and he came to take away the sins of the world. But what about the people who have never even heard of Jesus? Why did he only tell one part of the world? Why not everyone? And it's too late now. Anyone who has visions of god is just crazy, or they're made out to be. I think they're crazy though.

I don't see the logic in saying people choose to go to hell. That's just taking the blame away from god.

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