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Definitions What do you mean by: Agnostic, God, Religion, Faith, etc?



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Old 01-29-2007, 04:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
Og
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I was not identifying god and money/language/etc as the same. I do not deify money. God is a monotheistic entity in the west and is both the vehicle and source of the universe. I was not claiming that about the other concepts we have. I was not identifying god with nature. The concept of god is that of the supernatural. I was just saying that the concept exists in nature. I wasn't deifying those other things.

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god is unreal in the minds of atheists, does that make him non-existent?
No. Love is clearly as much of a delusion as Self and as God. Just because people have weaker egos than other folks or because one person is not loved or doesn't experience love does not mean that love does not exist.

The concept of god is well illustrated throughout human history and is strongly within the minds of folks today. I'm not trying to split hairs with this. God exists as many people will tell you. They have the concept in their head and relate to others through it (turn on any country music radio station for plenty of examples of this).

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We don't know yet how does the brain produce conciousness, writing the impressive words 'quantum' and 'biomolecules' does not say we do.
We don't know this? Consciousness is 1 to 1 correlated with brain matter. Consciousness is derived from sensory systems in your body. Try having a thought or dream or any experience that is not based on sensory signals. You can't. Consciousness is sensor analysis.

A doctor can stimulate your brain directly during surgery with electric current and cause your system to behave a certain way outside of your control. Your sensory systems are basically hundreds of millions of tiny wires that jack into your brain and are constantly trickling similar stimulation signals as that doctor applied.

We know quite a bit about consciousness and the structure of the brain and the way that we experience and what experience means.

Quantum electrodynamics is important to understand because it's responsible for what appears to be "deterministic" behavior. Quantum illustrates that the future is indeterminant. But as events unfold, large numbers of "biomolecules" respond with fixed probabilities of behavior that are not modified.

Experts do not continue to argue about free will unless it's about the definition of the term. Science has established:

If Free will is defined as the ability for someone to act in a manner independent of the inputs of their surroundings, it is clear that we do not have that ability. Our behavior is complex and the ultimate human delusion is that we DO have this free will. But that's just part of the whole construct.

You are bound to behave a given way to given stimuli. There pathways of neural signals through the brain can be imaged using modern technology and there's just no room for their modification by some external soul not bound by the laws of the universe.

I wasn't trying to sound all powerful by using quantum. it was just to illustrate that the future is indeterminant but free will does not exist.

Neurobiologists do not hold onto free will. It simply can't apply as a concept. We are complex biomechanical machines. There's not debate on this. only boatloads of evidence that we are these machines.
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Old 01-29-2007, 07:16 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I guess an important point is that we have to live with some delusions (such as self) because life/consciousness doesn't have any meaning otherwise.
Is this one of those matrix ideas, like "your mind makes it real"? I guess that makes sense. But wouldn't that make exsistence simply a delusion to?
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Yes. Death as an end is an illusion. Birth as a beginning is an illusion.

This is ultimately what the matrix was illustrating. The only deal is that it simply doesn't make any sense to exist outside this matrix. The existence only makes sense within the delusion.

That's the cool thing about this realization of "free will as myth"...

You can then readily see what is good for life and what is not. You're not cast about by the torrents of fear and desire. You can step back and say "do I want to do this knowing that ultimately good and evil are delusions?"

And you can behave compassionately knowing that:

1) Everyone you see is an expression of the same thing that you are. There is no distinction between you and me. Just because my skin doesn't enfold your nervous system doesn't mean we're somehow ultimately separate.

2) Whatever you do, you had no ultimate choice in the matter. So just do what makes you feel good in the realm of the realization of the previous point. There can't be any punishment in eternity for some sort of soul. The universe just is. It's unfolding in an indeterminant manner (as we can see from Quantum mechanics).

Self is delusion. I is delusion. God is delusion. Love is delusion.

With this realization, you can then truly take control of your life and decide which delusions you want to keep and which to discard.

Some people who sing and purchase country music or have become attached to someone such that their death shatters their life might need the idea of god. And that's fine. Others might meet a person and feel love and then analyze that feeling and think it's great and dive in.

Some people might like to unshackle themselves from the idea of ego (self/I) and join the army or some other regimented hierarchical organization where their only role is to follow orders. That's fine too.

We pick what delusions we live by. And that's the ultimate delusion (that "we" pick). Most people don't have an active awareness of these delusions.

Some do, and then the idea of the western god just melts away as an obvious construct within the human mind and not ultimately true beyond that.

This really hits at the core of what it means to be human.

edit: I should say "The human condition" because I'm not sure that being has meaning or that it has a purpose other than the purpose of the universe unfolding.
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:58 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Depends on how you're saying this LadyLuck. You can say that God is an idea "created" by humans and that only resides in the human mind. But then if you look at the idea of free will as myth and "I" as the ultimate delusion, then we didn't create anything.

God is a concept in the human mind and is very powerful. It's part of being alive. Some people hold the christian God to be The God. Others hold hindu pantheons or the more general god of abraham (i.e. allah/yaweh). We didn't create them in any ultimate sense (since in the same breath of saying god is a delusion I say self is a delusion as well).

Is god an actual man sitting on a throne in heaven somewhere up in the sky? Certainly not. Is God real? I say yes because I say that money/language/love/hate/birth/death/self are real.

It's not pantheism. But you can't really reject the existence of language more than you can reject the idea of god. It's a driving force in the way that so many people interact with the world.

Ultimately real in a physical anthropomorphic sense? No. A collective delusional driving force to the human population? Sure. But so is love/hate and fear/desire and free will. God is REAL in the mind of people and those minds are real.

I guess an important point is that we have to live with some delusions (such as self) because life/consciousness doesn't have any meaning otherwise. And it doesn't suck to live with the delusions. I think it's just important to know that it's all a delusion. It allows you to find that still center within you and not be torn in this direction and that by fear and desire or this idea of sin.

If God works for you, then enjoy it/Him and wallow in the relationship. The problems come when you try to force that delusion on someone who isn't in the same mindset as you. That's what sucks about religion.

This is not pantheism. This is delusionism or hedonism or whatever you want to call it.

The human brain is ultimately a complex collection of biomolecules subject to quantum electrodynamic forces as the universe unfolds. Our behavior is in no way under our control and the idea of "self" has absolutely no meaning on a cosmic scale.

Without self, the western gods have no meaning. Ironically, the eastern spiritualities and pantheons embrace this reality and the ultimate spiritual realization is the lack of self (atman). Neuroscience in the western world illustrates this as well.
So you answered my Q from the last thread you can copy an paste if you wish the answer to it in that but you are just as vague and unsatisfying. Your saying that God manipulates this all for his benefit. Based on the Free Will discussion we had we have no Free Will cause apparently humans can be programmed and will be programmed as a highlight to my life. I'll probably be too old to care or for anyone else to care about me. God is a Spider building a Web. I will probably hope She resembles in Her multidimensional frame (M-Theory, String Theory) that she resembles the Professional Widow (hope she sees that).

Your thoughts seem more along the lines of Nietsche. No Free Will. It creates and It destroys. No one knows the pattern.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:02 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Free will exists. It's what I'm saying. It's as real as you or I am. It's integral to life and consciousness. We would have no sense of anything. No boundaries, no individuals, no love, no money, etc if we didn't have free will.

But we have all those things.
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Old 01-30-2007, 11:05 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Ok I think I kinda get what your saying Og. Tell me if I'm thinking about this in the right way please ^^. Alright, so your saying that free will exsists because of the delusions we choose to live by. That's where we have the power to shape our lives. Am I close? =D
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Old 01-30-2007, 02:50 PM   #27 (permalink)
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It's all relative. Ultimately on a scale inconsequential to human life, there is no free will as we humans define it.

But if you're going to internalize that, you have to discard the idea of self as well. And I don't believe anyone can do this. This would be akin to the nirvanic release expressed in buddhism. Simply by desiring to carry out this act, you keep yourself from being able to do it.

So, as long as you think of your "self" as real then free will is along for the ride.

If you're looking for ultimate truth, you'll find it doesn't have much application to human life.
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Old 01-30-2007, 11:03 PM   #28 (permalink)
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LOL not to put us back through a never-ending loop hole, but everything in life exsists as much as you want to believe it does? SO really nothing exsists we just pretend or convince ourselves that things are real. Yes, no?
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Old 01-31-2007, 08:42 AM   #29 (permalink)
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From the Buddhist "Flower Adornment" or "Flower Wreath" Sutra:

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There is nothing to say about life. It has no meaning. You make meaning. If you want a meaning in your life, find a meaning and bring it into your life, but life won't give you a meaning. Meaning is a concept. It is a notion of an end toward which you are going. The point of buddhism is this is it
It's from a teaching where a buddha simply held up a flower. I want to add that I only mildly consider myself a buddhist. Only in the sense that the name means enlightened to the illusion of the world.

The self MUST be a delusion.

A doctor opens up a patient's skull on an operating table to take out a tumor or repair a blood vessel. He stimulates parts of the brain in order to map out his location. The person behaves outside of their own control from their perspective. Memories are brought to the surface, motor function is activated, higher functions (like speech) are modified.

In the same way that the doctor applies a probing current with a wire, every sensory neuron in your body offers identical connections into your brain. Your eye, for examples, branches 10 million little wires into your brain that connect in a complex manner to stimulate very specific areas of your cortex on the back surface of your brain.

Vision is identical to stimulating the visual cortex with picture information. I can give you references to papers on medical procedures where electrode arrays are implanted on the visual cortex and the visual field is stimulated in blind patients. One study I saw on CNN and this guy could drive a car around cones in a parking lot and was totally blind.

All experience is based on the fact that your perception is not on the level of complexity of your inputs. Try zooming in on a painting. All you'd see is the bits and details of the paint particles. Zoom out, and you can interpret an image. It's the same idea. We are the higher functions of our neocortex. We are the zoomed out results of higher analysis and integrations of hundreds of millions of tiny electrochemical signals that arrive at the brain in the same way that the brain surgeon maps out his location and produces behaviors out of your control.

The difference is, that instead of 1 electrode zapping around, you have hundreds of millions of wires leading into your brain sending in information about the world around you.

It's amazingly complex and wonderful to realize.

We are no more in ULTIMATE control of our daily activities than we are in control of our bodies when the doctor is stimulating our muscles directly through pathways from the brain.

But we or I does not make any sense without the sense of control that is our central delusion. Ideas exist as much as you want them to. I'm not trying to suggest that you can believe food into existence. I'm saying that nothing exists in the sense that we think it does. There is no me in ultimate reality. I am a delusion. It can't be any other way just by the sheer volume of observations that neuroscientists and neurosurgeons provide.

I don't know about existence in an ultimate sense. But I know that what we must be experiencing as self is ultimately a delusion. The difference between you and me is a delusion. Just because my skin doesn't enfold your nervous system doesn't mean that we're somehow different processes.

Birth, death, fear, desire, love, hate, god, money, language, self are all delusions.

The point is to pick which delusions to live by. To pick your meaning. Make it part of your own and turn this free fall through life into a swan dive instead of flailing about screaming.

But you need a means by which to select your delusions. Self is first for obvious reasons. There is no you to "pick" delusions without that first one. It is the foundation.

Beyond that, you can be indoctrinated into another delusion (as many are at birth and throughout life). You can stumble upon some other doctrine or have it shown to you by an individual. You can interpret coincidences in terms of a doctrine and swallow that. These are all dogma delusions that fit with god.

Or, you can break it down to simply the self. And then a utilitarian and empirical selection of other delusions. Love, for example because it seems so harmonious with the delusion of self. You connect with the delusion of another self. Money and language, for example, can be good to accept for a similar reason as accepting love.

Just realize that all along, humans haven't had this realization so readily apparent. Adam and eve were cast into the human condition by the illusion of good and evil (i.e. eating of the tree). This realization of choice and opposites was the original story of the delusion of duality and how consciousness arose. The story is expressed differently in many other cultures, but this is the western expression in the bible.

But now, science has simply realized what was there all along. That it truly is a delusion. It's put words on this realization that ultimately we are truly free of original sin (the entering of delusions into our lives). So then what is left is what the buddhists do. Joyful participation in the suffering of the world. It's what jesus embodied.

That same sutra that I quoted above describes an image called "the jeweled net of Indra." It is an image of an infinate array of jewels in all directions in space. Each jewel is polished such that it reflects every other jewel in the net perfectly. So every jewel is a reflection of every other jewel.

It's a beautiful expression of an idea that has been around for millenia and is finally getting true teeth in our detailed observations that science makes possible.

What exists is the universe. If you think your something other than a flower that has budded up out of that root then this is a delusion.

If you think that a creator god monitors your deeds as an independent self in this world and punishes or rewards you for all eternity in the afterlife, then this is an illusion too. It's a powerful illusion just as the self is VERY powerful. It is a motivation for behavior as the self. This god is very real in the behaviors that he motivates. VERY real.

And given that there's no ultimate choice anyway, you can't ultimately blame people for any of their delusions. What is is what is. This is the ultimate realization. That, and "thou art that." What you see is part of what you are.

Western religions are clearly illusions in the mind of man. What this realization of modern neuroscience allows us to do is empirically approach the delusion and pick those parts that feed our most essential delusion (self). This is the goal of all life then. Self preservation.

This is not the goal of life for any specific meaning. It is only the goal of life because objects without this goal don't exist (for the obvious reason that they don't preserve themselves). There is nothing saying that you have to have this goal.

Live life and enjoy it. But have the realization that it is not ultimately meaningful. I think this realization will bring harmony to people in the future. I think that it is coming no matter what we do and that there is already a large paradigm shift approaching relating to this realization. Why kill in the name of your delusion? Why hate and embrace strife for "rewards" in an afterlife that is delusion?

It's the ultimate expression of carpe diem. Living here and now.

Modern engineering is becoming more and more integrated with yesterday's biology forming new fields. We realize that the sciences that we've applied to develop technology that is changing the face of the world is in no way different from what we are as individuals. The underlying principles are the same.

My PhD will be in the field of Biophysics at Cornell (I'm finishing this semester) and I was the first funded student at the first Congressional National Nanotechnology initiative institution relating to hybridization of nanotech with biology (Cornell's Nanobiotechnology center). It's what I'm dipped deep in and it oozes from my pores. I got undergraduate degrees in electrical engineering and physics and my focus in my biophysics PhD has been on instrumentation to integrate engineering analysis methods into neuroscience. Just to give a little taste of my background and how it relates to the realization of the above statements.

Communicating it in this manner makes me so excited because it's so real and such a beautiful realization in the face of so much sectarian and cultural conflict in an ever more interconneted world.

Just realize that ultimately I am just a silly little flapping sack of meat in the wind and that all that schooling that I've been through is another extension of the process that causes the rise of every other individual from the oppressed minds of middle eastern radical islam to the middle american farmer to Hitler and back to Ghandi. It's divinity in all things and all people. That's what Namaste is about in my signature.
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Old 01-31-2007, 09:01 AM   #30 (permalink)
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We can play in the delusion. We can call ourselves "creatures" different from the rest of the world. We can cast ourselves in all sorts of ways that relate to all sorts of other delusions similar to the self (i.e. God or others). Have fun with it!

Enjoyment and pleasure all under the realization that "thou art that." That's what enlightenment is. Live now, dissolve later but realize that there's nothing to the dissolution. Death is a myth. It's just nature casting off the delusion that it instituted when you were "born"... The self. Know this about loved ones. Enjoy the eternal moment with them now. Don't cling to it. Clinging tosses you out of the moment.

When a loved one dies, feel it inside. Know that it is the same myth that you have internalized that has simply run its course.

There's all sorts of wonderful realizations in this enlightenment. Nothing is happening, it's all ok. Enjoy it. Turn the free fall through life into a dive.. Headfirst into the abyss. Mmmm

To tie this to the thread topic, you might as well ask for claims of the self in the realization of modern neuroscience as you would ask for claims of god in terms of modern empiricism. Worry about it. Don't worry about it. It's all good.
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