offshoot-women in christianity

snowbirdfsf · 12-08-2006, 05:41 PM

this is one of the big reasons i stopped going to church. if the bible were really god's words just written by man then why didn't god speak up for women? wouldn't he have enough control over what was being written? and since people believe the things in the bible are just as applicable today as it was when it was written then the idea of submissive women continues to permeate christian circles.

}SoC{Sumguy · 12-08-2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowbirdfsf

this is one of the big reasons i stopped going to church. if the bible were really god's words just written by man then why didn't god speak up for women? wouldn't he have enough control over what was being written? and since people believe the things in the bible are just as applicable today as it was when it was written then the idea of submissive women continues to permeate christian circles.

Actually, the most common interpretation of the bible shows that women are equal to men.

so, you would reject a whole religion, because King James and Gutenburg had a bias?

the original Greek translation shows in no way that women are infior to men.

MickinEngland · 12-09-2006, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowbirdfsf

this is one of the big reasons i stopped going to church. if the bible were really god's words just written by man then why didn't god speak up for women?

Ha ha ha what planet you been on? ;)
Haven't you seen my Jessica/ Last Comfort/ Leonora/ Sally/ Molly posts in this forum?
Here's a re-run of one just for you -

THE LAST COMFORT by Mick (the term prophesy also meant preach)
"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. On my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will speak." (Joel 2:28-32)
In fact there have always been special women in the Bible -
Miriam who saved her baby brother Moses from death when she was just a child;
Deborah, prophetess, judge and military leader;
Huldah who taught at the college in Jerusalem.;
Rahab the prostitute who sheltered the two fugitive Israelis,
The evangelist Philip had four daughters who were prophetesses;
The early Christian sect in Phrygia was led by Montanus and two prophetesses, Priscilla and Maximilla..
And Paul paid glowing tributes to other women -"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea..she has been a great help to many people, including me..
Greet Priscilla , my fellow worker in Christ Jesus.she risked her life for me.
Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you..
Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persis, those women who work hard in the Lord.Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.
Greet Julia.." (Romans ch 16)
And he reminds us -
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )

Jesus spent a terrible long night before his death,unable to sleep and racked with loneliness as his disciples fell asleep,
But next day on the cross, as he slipped into death his tired pain-filled eyes saw a host of loyal women who'd stuck with him to the end..
"Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed his last. There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene and Salome, who followed him and ministered to him when he was in Galilee, and many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem" (Mark 15:37)

They gave him the last womanly comfort they could by making sure he never died alone..

Belle · 12-09-2006, 09:48 AM

No need to be condescending to make your argument, Mick... your attitude negates your point which I believe was that the Bible treats women equally to men, correct? How about this:

Quote:

1. Jesus said very little about the roles of men and women, but the way he acted shows how he considered the subject. In John 4:7 we find him talking to an unrelated woman as an equal, something no Jewish or Roman male of that day would normally do. He talks with the Samaritan woman at the well, and treats her with respect, though her own neighbors obviously treat her with disdain.
2. In Luke 8:1-3 and several other passages, we see that Jesus had women as disciples.
3. Jesus calls a woman, Mary Magdalene, to be the first witness to carry the good news of the resurrection. This is extraordinary, and notable with regard to the fact that women were not allowed to be witnesses in legal proceedings under rabbinical law as they were said to be "all liars." Many female ministers have held this to be the main justification for their equal calling.
4. In Acts 2:14-18, in Peter's sermon at the initiation of the modern church, he quotes the prophet Joel about the pouring out of the Spirit in the last days: the quoted benefits of the Spirit are shared equally by men and women. In fact, both sons and daughters will prophesy. (Prophecy here is not so much a foretelling of the future - rather the primary meaning is to speak for God.)
5. Paul is accompanied by house-church leaders Priscilla and Aquila. Priscilla, a female, is a dominant figure in Paul's ministry and leads with Aquila.
6. A woman named Junia is mentioned of note among the apostles (KJV) Romans 16:7.
7. In Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe is commended as a woman deacon.
8. Pliny the Younger, in a correspondence to Emperor Trajan of Rome, writes of two female deaconesses whom he had tortured.
9. In Galatians 3:28-29, the author (Paul) makes a blanket statement that baptism into Christ constitutes putting on or clothing one's self with Christ. This passage reads:

..."There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

LINK

Belle · 12-09-2006, 10:01 AM

Of course, there is the flip side to that argument which goes:

Quote:

There are many scriptural references that reveal distinct functions/roles between men and women at home and in the church. The Bible endorses different functions/roles between men and women in the home. (1 Peter 3:1-6; Eph 5:22, 25; Titus 2:4; Colossians 3:18-19). In general, men are exhorted to lead with love and consideration, while women are told to submit with loving reverence. Colossians 3:18-23 in particular is addressed directly to specific groups: women are to submit to the leadership of their husband, men to love their wives and not to treat them with harshness, children to respect their parents, fathers not to frustrate their children, and slaves to obey their masters.

Both Paul and Peter refer to the Old Testament to justify the submission of woman to man; the creation of Eve after Adam (1 Corinthians 11:8-9) and the transgression of Eve before Adam (1 Timothy 2:12).

1 Peter 3:1-6 justifies submission on the grounds that "Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord" (KJV).

1 Corinthians 14:34 states that women must not speak/preach in Church "as also saith the law" (KJV), but there is no reference in the Old Testament to support this. 14:35 goes on to state that "it is a shame for women to speak in the church", and that women should be taught only by their husbands. Many NT scholars have argued that a Greek particle that appears many times within Paul's writings - usually used when Paul is quoting a mistaken position and then refuting it - is used here. The particle comes directly at the beginning of 1 Corinthians 14:36, and is translated "What?" in the KJV; this leads some to believe that Paul is actually quoting a prior Corinthian letter in 1 Cor 14:34-35 and then refuting the proud Corinthian doctrine later.

LINK

MickinEngland · 12-09-2006, 12:18 PM

Incidentally I never married because I never found a woman on my wavelength, maybe I set my sights too high..
"A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life"
(Proverbs 31)

}SoC{Sumguy · 12-09-2006, 04:33 PM

the old testament is now moot, the New Covenant of Jesus Christ has taken it's place.

FourBear · 12-09-2006, 09:27 PM

If the Bible is God's words written by man, then the Bible is inherently biased towards the thoughts of the man that wrote them...I don't think there is any getting around that. Unless you believe the man that recorded it was unbiased, but I don't think that was the case.

lemmex · 12-10-2006, 12:28 AM

I think your post is very timely.

It was a man's world and they dominated it. You have to remember women in this time were treated as property. You know, I've always felt if God wanted to make a prophcy that would actually have proved His presense without doubtl, the prophecy, Jesus would be a female. Not even god would dare this.

Recently I heard on the news a minister let a woman go (fired) who taught Bible School. She'd done so for many years. The reason, he said he had to let her go because the Bible didn't allow women to teach the Bible.

If your minister, etc said, nope, women aren't allowed to teach, are you then obligated to obey. I've always been interested that by tradition women can't be preists and some say they can't preach. It's against the Bible. The reason given is (from the Bible). "Women are not permitted to teach or to have authority of a man; she must be silent (i Timothy 2:11-15) and "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.... for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35). And by example, as the Chruch says, Jesus didn't allow or otherwise have female apostles only males. Your Bible is clear in this matter, so why do you argue. Keep in mind if you do not obey the Bible then you have sinned. This is the essence of free will and so sometimes it appears it free-will isn't bad all the time. This is what errancy of the Bible is not misspelled words.

The reason for discimination of women goes back in history. In Judaism of course women's roles were highly restrictive. But a lot has to do with roles women once served. In many aspects of religion particularly in pagan cultures women and in ancient times women were ofter equal to and in many cases more prominent then males is religions whorship. Women played an important part in that past. The anti feminine view came about as the male rejection of priestesses who served female gods and their importance which was later seen obsense and has retained this hidden stigma. Of course we say the bible prohites it now but the idea how it came about has been lost in time. In the established religions males took over their roles in ritual pratice. I think if you ask people in the know, females can't be priests because of its association to paganism. This truth has since been absored into tradition and we now teach merely Jesus excluded women. The first reason had to do more with the attempt to destroy foreign gods. The Bible has always been pretty stern on that topic.

Many experts even believe the first gods man believed in were female. The association would be obvious why, the birth factor. During centuries of development female gods ultimately were to coexist with male gods. Then the association of male/female gods in pairs evolved into separate coequal beings. Since that time God has always been male.

Starlily · 12-10-2006, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourBear

If the Bible is God's words written by man, then the Bible is inherently biased towards the thoughts of the man that wrote them...I don't think there is any getting around that. Unless you believe the man that recorded it was unbiased, but I don't think that was the case.

Good point... this pretty much sums it up. How many books in the bible were written from a female perspective? I guess none, if you believe that god is male and the bible is the word of god... Although I have never read the 'lost' gospels that were excluded from the bible, but heard somewhere that the spirit aspect of the trinity is refered to in the feminine gender (?)

As to your question Sumguy about rejecting a religion based on the version of the bible...well...men interpreted the bible, and men shaped the religion...in the early days, it turned into a power struggle... simply living their lives based on jesus example (as written) would not have resulted in the crusades, witch-hunts, etc. etc. etc.... so maybe the moral of the story is, take what is true and relevant to you from great historical figures and writings, and think for yourself...

I'm enjoying reading all of your thoughts, and learning alot.

Peace...