Og

You're assuming an infinite timeline into the past. If time began at the big bang (there is strong evidentiary support for this) then how is it that a god could have "preceded" that and how would an infinite paradox of creation of the creator follow?

If time began at the big bang then how do you talk about an event "before" that?

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neverforever

ok give me the evidentiarly suport.

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Og

General relativity. Time is a property of matter. General relativity makes many predictions about the nature of time and space that are well supported by observation.

I recommend reading Stephen Hawking's book "A brief history of time." It's got a lot of fun details about what we know about the nature of the universe from an extremely prominent astrophysicist.

The notion of time makes no sense before the big bang. Thus there is no possible way to create in infinite paradox before the big bang because you can not regress in time for causality of creation to apply.

I'm not supporting the god argument, I'm simply saying that the argument for infinite regression of creation just doesn't make any sense when our current observations seem to show time having no meaning at the big bang.

I personally can't wrap my mind around a timeline with a hard starting point and no concept of "Before" that... But that seems to be the case.

So, check the theory of general relativity. We don't know the exact details, and the current theory doesn't apply as you get too close in time to the actual bang event, but until then, the theory applies quite well and it seems like time is variable.

We use the predictions of general relativity to calculate orbits and lensing of light to map out the universe. We use the predictions of special relativity to correct the atomic clocks in the GPS satellites in orbit to increase their accuracy at spatial localization... etc.

I'm simply saying that the assumption of an infinite temporal regression of creation of the creator doesn't make any sense by what we know about the nature of the big bang.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

neverforever

Ok so time may not of had a meaning before the big bang becuase there was nothing to measure it by.


By the way all the debates i try to start is for me to try to learn more.
That is y i cant leave this forum

__________________
If i talk to god i don't know if he is listening ...
I'm talking to myself because no one else is listening..

Og

Hrm.. Not quite. General Relativity describes time as a PROPERTY of matter like mass and charge and gravity and position and color. It is inseparable from matter The notion that time existed and couldn't be measured doesn't make any sense. It can only exist if it can be measured because it's a property of things that exist.

It's bizarre and counter intuitive given our location on this relatively constant temporal landscape on the surface of earth, but it appears to be true through observation.


Cool Again, I'm not trying to say you are wrong because we don't know what the heck is going on at/before the big bang or even if those terms make sense when applied to that instant (if it was an instant).

I'm just saying that it appears wonky.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

neverforever

I guess ill have to go read into general relativity

__________________
If i talk to god i don't know if he is listening ...
I'm talking to myself because no one else is listening..

Abel

One quick question for you. What caused this Big Bang? Everythig we are able to see, and comprehend is a result of cause and effect. So my question is: what is the cause of the Big Bang effect? What force set in motion the elements in order for them to Bang?

Og

if you read my above posts, I was trying to make it clear that your question: "What caused the big bang?" appears to NOT be a valid question. How can you have causality without time? Saying "before the big bang" appears to be a nonsensical phrase. And yet we have no way to wrap our minds around what this means. There is nothing in the scope of our experience that includes this, but an object and purely evidence driven analysis of the universe seems to indicate that it is the case.

Your question about "before the big bang" makes sense given our perspective from this relatively unchanging inertial reference frame on earth, but it is not the case that you can extrapolate the fact that you live a similar duration to your parents to the rest of the universe.

Time dilation and other aspects of General Relativity are experimentally demonstrated in modern cosmology and astrophysics. Time is a relative property of matter.

I recommend that both of you get Stephen Hawking's "Illustrated Brief History of Time." He's a prominent physicist that does a wonderful job illustrating these points with cool pictures and neat thought experiments.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

neverforever

Abel not to avoid your question because i don't know the answer but i have a question for you. So everything you can comprehend is a result of cause and effect but do we always know the cause.

__________________
If i talk to god i don't know if he is listening ...
I'm talking to myself because no one else is listening..

Abel

Neverforever,

Thank you for your honesty in not knowing the cause for the Big Bang. I will be just as honest. From the aspect of our physical world, I would have to say Yes, we do know the cause of the effects we see. Not me personally, my comprehension is pretty limited not being a scientist or physicist. But I do believe there is evidence for the cause and effect that we see everyday.

I will also admitt there are many things outside of the physical that I can't comprehend, much less explain. "Why do the innocent suffer?" is one question I cannot give an answer to.