the end of the Church and the reclamation of God - Page 12

Og · 03-09-2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GX

I knew I heard that somewhere before!

I should have said the theory I agree with instead of "my theory". That theory makes a lot of sense for me as well and fills in the blanks quite nicely. Thanks for the response and the reading recommendations Og.

GX

Joseph Campbell met Jung and edited a wonderful summary of his work, "The Portable Jung."

In general, however, I think that Joseph Campbell's works speak to this reality of a collective consciousness much better. This is the point of myth. The myths of a society are their collective consciousness. They are avatars of the people. This is the point of myth (the "man created god" comment). Man has the the God that he is capable of having, nothing more nothing less. God is a representation of the morals and attitudes of the men who worship him. Demons are unaddressed elements of the psyche that must be confronted. You'll find in many myths that the hero's journey is often to turn the demon into a guardian through introspection.

This was the sense of Luke skywalker when he faced vader in the cave on degobah and cut off his head to see his own face revealed. Vader was a demon that luke faced and conquered though understanding of himself. At that point, vader became a god in luke's pantheon (at the end of Jedi when all 3 of them stood together, obiwan, yoda, and anakin).

In that "Ratatouille" movie, the demon was the food critic. He was conquered through introspection on the mouses part and he was then placed as a guardian (investor) over the new cooking venture at the end of the movie.

This is common to all myths. Myths ARE the expression of the collective consciousness of the phenomenal form (humans) of the universal consciousness.

The true enlightened one realizes that when they see god, they are looking in a mirror. This is what Jesus did. He realized our identity with the divine. "I and the father are one"... They crucified him for it because they didn't recognize themselves in the mirror.

romansh · 03-10-2008, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GX

1) Nice talking point but nothing definitive here

2)Why not bring quantum phenomena into this? Why limit yourself? Maybe, ultimately, the quantum theories of interconnectedness and the unified whole have everything to do with this highly synchronized split second behavior. What evidence do you have to exclude quantum phenomena?

1) thanks .... I think we can never definitively prove how people put a wheel on a wagon, but we can understand how people develop what look like ostensibly new ideas.
2) I'm not sure how we can test quantum effects on macro objects, I'm not sure that that they even apply in this case. Why not exhaust the rational explanations before we to apply quantum mechanics to seagulls?

AB517 · 03-11-2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romansh

Quote:

Originally Posted by GX

Cases in point:
1) How would someone in the 18th century who was raised in a closed religious society with no other information available to him able to transcend his philosophical thought beyond that of the tribe?
2) Where did the inspiration come from for some of the greatest scientific discoveries of times past? It wasnt all done through endless rigid experimentation and the conclusions drawn from that.

3) My theory is that yes we do have an interconnected individuated consciousness at some subatomic level that drives the subconscious mind similar to how an operating system on a computer drives its applications programs. I have no evidence for this, just my theory.

1) Is that all the philosophers had at the time? ..... they never left their villages and towns, they did not read books from/about other cultures and philosophies, they did not observe the universe in action? hmmmn .....
2) inspiration from perspiration and observation. .... scientific method. So the answer is yes. We may have our eureka moments, but that is our brains/minds just doing their thing?
3) A theory? .... hmmn .... I would say this does the word theory a disservice, does (may) not meet the requirement for a hypothesis. Probably better described as a guess?

lol rom, kind of sounds like us.

"absolute ly no free will"

This needs to be tested.

To me free will is like driving a car. I can go anywhere I want; I stay on the road and with the vehicles specs. It is a matter of how much free will.

You guys claim absolutely no free will.
I hope you guys see that this is a faith statement. Claiming that the universe does anything absolutely goes against what is observed, for the most part. Even claiming things on a cosmic scale is pointless unless you qualify your statement with “We know very little about the universe and even less about the mind”

We are the first animal that can choose not to act on an impulse.

Can you do something that is totally against every fiber in your being? Animals can not and will not … humans can and often do.

Let’s rule out extreme conditions like war, accidents, or other extreme conditions surrounding you. Can we come up with an every day condition that tests if you have free will. Also, is it considered valid if we choose not to do something where the consequences out way the experiments. I will not kill someone to prove my free will.

The blue sky does exist (EMR wise) and yet it is an illusion.
Free will works much the same way. We are only the first step in evolution here on Earth that can choose to be different than the parts that make us up. The point of discussion should be around how much free will we have, not that we have it or not.

The bird thing.

They have modeled schools of fish. I am going back a ways, so take it as it is.
I am just simplifying it here, if a fish watches every fish on its left and does exactly what that fish does the speed of the effect through the school seems instant. Given that the first fish reacting to a change is not the only one acting on that event causes the effects to seem even faster.

AB517 · 03-11-2008, 11:46 AM

To claim that they now know there is no free will is absolutely wrong and should not be stated as a factual statement. This is a major problem with the internet.

Og · 03-11-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

hope you guys see that this is a faith statement. Claiming that the universe does anything absolutely goes against what is observed, for the most part. Even claiming things on a cosmic scale is pointless unless you qualify your statement with “We know very little about the universe and even less about the mind”

Really, what if I claim that the earth is NOT the same diameter as me given us moving at identical velocities. Is this claiming something is absolute?

Where is your above quote coming from? What makes you say that we know even less about the mind? Are you talking for humanity in general or just yourself?

romansh · 03-11-2008, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

To claim that they now know there is no free will is absolutely wrong and should not be stated as a factual statement. This is a major problem with the internet.

Hi AB

I'll try and explain .... every decision/choice we make is directly influenced by a myriad of antecedents ..... life experiences. Many of those involved decisions we had made previously and they have their own antecedents ad nauseum. Now if we had experienced a different set of life experiences then we would likely make a different choice?

Throw in genetic and heritable predispositions, our diet, age, health, diseases, our mothers' diets... these all affect the way we make decisions.

In this sense we have no free will. Is my logic faulty?

This does not absolve my actions when I transgess society's rules, though I would wish that Judge AB considers the mitigating circumstances before putting on the black cap.

When I joined the forum I too believed in free will; I could find you posts, me disagreeing with Og.... either I am more malleable than some or more open to change ..... or just plain dum?

I will continue to behave as though I have free will.

Tomasz · 03-12-2008, 09:39 AM

Now, who said the following ?

The only thing that nuclear conflict will do is to take us to the place which is anyway our final destination

Some fanatic mulla ? Suprise ... archbishop of Canterbury, one would have thought, the mildest of all

leananshae · 03-15-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by messenger

I hope some have read this far. This last section of Yeshua contains the Megameidan Directive (it was named by someone else btw) and this is what some have taken up as a movement aimed at starting the process of toppling the Roman Catholic authority. It is a simple act, what Big Smile/Megameidan has asked us each to consider doing

I had read about this.

It was started with a chain letter I had heard.

GX · 03-15-2008, 02:40 PM

I got busy the last week and haven’t had a chance to respond. Hope your still here messenger…

Quote:

Originally Posted by messenger

I was raised Protestant myself. And then, as you know, I spent over a decade as a Wiccan.

Got a question for you. I was biking early one weekend morning alongside lake Michigan and saw a woman (who I guess might have been a wicca but Im not sure) by a tree with many low branches and offshoots facing the lake. She had place several (2 or 3) loose branches she found on the ground on some of the branches of the tree in a certain pattern and then starting speaking in tongues. Was this some kind of wicca thing and if so what she doing?

Quote:

Yes, he was addressing AP with that. As for 'tips', here's one from a hedgewitch: Sensory deprivation may help. And hours and hours of it. Certain 'plants' may help. But only if you are willing to 'abuse' their purposes.

Yes, I believe Edain McCoy (wicca author) spoke of this in her astral projection book. It is some kind of European wicca entheogen that I cant quite recall right now. Don’t want to project under the influence though so I will go natural.

Quote:

Since were on prophecy, I’m interested and have several questions! Is this in regard to the 2012 Mayan calendar/prohecy? Either way could you ask Big Smile what the 2012 Mayan prophecies are all about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by messenger

Big Smile: "Wait and see." Ah, and he's like, "Math is not God."

I'll focus on this a little bit later when I'm fresher. Maybe I'll get more.

Have you had a chance to get fresher on this? If so, lets hear it! I also have another prophecy related question. Recently, the boundary of european country was violated. Kosovo which through international law, was legally a part of Serbia was recongnized by half of the major powers (US included). Will this seemingly innocuous event have negative repercussions in the world as there are a lot of disgruntled minorities within legally defined international borders who wish to create their own statelets. Also will the balkan region reignite?

Also, another member posted the following several weeks ago and I was wondering if you can enlighten us as to this peculiar phenomena...

Quote:

Yesterday morning, I emailed a document to my colleague from my office (not located on campus, 20mi. away). Afterwards, I got into the shower, and, while I was washing my hair, I heard in my head my colleague say, “Oh, this is from Krista.” Next, I heard another voice say, “Are you busy?” My colleague said, “No, come in Amanda.” Amanda said, “How did I do on my paper?” Well, that’s all I heard.
I came in today and told this colleague what I heard; although, I was not so straightforward in telling him just what I heard? First, I told him I know he received the document. Next, I asked him about Amanda. He said she was one of his students and said nothing more about her. I then told him I know that he said, “oh, this is from Krista” in a very monotone voice and he sounded tired. Then I told him Amanda came in right after he received my document. I told him she asked if he was busy, I told him that he said no, and that she asked about her paper. When I told him, he was surprised. He was asking if I tapped the room. I told him that if I did tap the room I would know much more than some girl asking about her paper.
He and I talked over coffee this morning, and I told him about my ‘skill’ and how I often verify what I hear with the people who are involved without disclosing that I ‘heard something’. I rarely tell people about my ‘skill’ because it’s weird, even for me, but I figured I’d take a chance with my colleague. We talked about ESP and telepathy, and discussed some of the research that has been conducted in this para-psychological area. We then talked to some professors in the biology and chemistry departments. We are looking for any answer regarding this matter. We know about the mind reading study that was done with the cards and colors, but the participants concentrated on the fact that a message was being sent and were in close proximity to each other.
Some important facts: I don’t know Amanda, I’ve never met Amanda, I’ve never talked to Amanda, Amanda is a new transfer student who began attending the university less than a month ago, Amanda has never visited the office before (he asked her about this), I did not tap the room, I don’t have a mental disorder, I’m not mentally unstable, I was not under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
What is even more troubling and confusing is the fact that this happens all the time. At least once a month, I hear something. I cannot call upon it, it just happens. Oftentimes, I hear things that are irrelevant (stupid information that really has no purpose for me knowing it). I even hear the inflection of the voices. One time I stood in the DMV line and heard every thought from the lady standing behind me. I felt like running away since I had heard these thoughts over a period of 2 hours. But, hey, it’s the DMV line. I wouldn’t leave to save my life since I would have to wait another two hours when I came back, lol. It also works the other way. One time I was sitting on the toilet at my parents’ house while they were away on vacation, noticed there was no tissue paper, and thought to myself, “I wish Eric (my boyfriend) would get me some toilet paper from the closet.” A minute later, he knocked on the door and said, “did you need toilet paper?” He would not have known we were out since we just arrived and nobody was there to tell him we were out. Oh, yes, I must tell you he has this ‘skill’ as well, and it works much like my ‘skill.’ He hears useless, irrelevant information. And in case you were wondering, we don’t communicate in this manner. We can’t. Neither he nor I can call upon it. It just happens. We verify it without disclosing the fact we ‘hear voices,’ then wonder why in the world we hear nonsense such as, Jim is letting the dog out, Amanda wants to know about her paper, or Mike wants to go to bed but can’t since he’s waiting for a phone call from with his mother. These are just examples of stupid information that I’ve verified.
Again, I’m agnostic and my boyfriend is also agnostic. I need some scientific data to explain it. My colleague and I are looking for some reasonable explanation. He is in awe regarding this matter. He still can’t believe I heard Amanda yesterday, but realizes I would have no other way of knowing this information. He and I both await a response. Any insights? Sorry about the length.

Thanks
GX

AB517 · 03-26-2008, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romansh

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB517

To claim that they now know there is no free will is absolutely wrong and should not be stated as a factual statement. This is a major problem with the internet.

Hi AB

I'll try and explain .... every decision/choice we make is directly influenced by a myriad of antecedents ..... life experiences. Many of those involved decisions we had made previously and they have their own antecedents ad nauseum. Now if we had experienced a different set of life experiences then we would likely make a different choice?

Throw in genetic and heritable predispositions, our diet, age, health, diseases, our mothers' diets... these all affect the way we make decisions.

In this sense we have no free will. Is my logic faulty?

This does not absolve my actions when I transgess society's rules, though I would wish that Judge AB considers the mitigating circumstances before putting on the black cap.

When I joined the forum I too believed in free will; I could find you posts, me disagreeing with Og.... either I am more malleable than some or more open to change ..... or just plain dum?

I will continue to behave as though I have free will.

I agree with "in a sense" we have no free will. That is my point.

Humans can decide to change or act differently tomorrow than they did today is my point. We need all of our recourses to do this. We can over time change our brain patters. We will then be “Locked” into the new thinking. This will be proven soon enough.

No need to find your other post. To a non-since person they can seem like truth’s set in stone. To those that understand the systems used as examples know that these are opinions. You are open minded, we all need to be careful of being baffled by BS. I need to be aware that I can baffle myself with my own BS.

Again I can not say enough that is “how much free will” we have not that we have it or not. To me, we have little free will so I must be ever vigilant over my own “Brain”.