romansh

Regardless of whether the conclusion is right or wrong the method of getting to the conclusion uses reason and logic not faith. This was the bit I felt strongly that you were wrong about.
Og could explain it better than I.... but here goes.

We are chemical machines, true or false; I would posit true based on the evidence?
We are more than just chemical machines, true or false - tricky? My intuition tells me true but I cannot give you any evidence. Having no evidence I hold silent on an answer.

Now when I (we) make a decision (etc), what is it based on? Information available, the ways we have been taught to make decisions, other ancilliary inputs (did you have a good day at work, etc). Throw on top of that our genetic make up, our mothers' diets during pregnancy. What about our unconcious contribution to decision making. I could go on. There are a myriad of influences contributing to our decisions.

So when I think I make a choice, is it "I" or the universe around me?

Regardless of whether this is true I will go on behaving as though I have freewill.... I have no other choice....

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

GX

[quote=debdodd;25609][quote=GX;25607][quote=debdodd;25591]
GX;
*you're silly ..... and condescending ...
QUOTE]

You got it half right DebDodd, I was being silly in the latter part of my post, but it was in response to what I perceived to be your condescension:

My sillyness was merely a means of being lighthearted about the whole situation. I do not wish to create any ill will or bad vibes here, so as far as Im concerned, I am willing to just let the matter drop at this point and let this be the end of it and hopefully you are too. I do, however, wish to compliment you on your flair for the dramatic and your creative use of emoticons in your last post (I am not being silly or concescending here but sincere).
Peace?
GX

Og

What experience are you referring to?

Imagine a doctor (a neurosurgeon) has someone's skull open to remove a tumor. The doctor can take a little electrode and shock parts of your brain and cause all manner of things to happen. He can cause your arm to lift and drop, you to feel tickled, experience deep emotions or memories, become unable to speak, smell something strongly... etc..

When this doctor closes your head up, you are walking about in the world. What you then have is 10s of millions of little stimulators (sensory neurons like your photoreceptors and olfactory neurons) which convert signals from the outside world into signals that stimulate your brain in an identical manner to that which the doctor was doing.

This stimulation has been going on your entire life. Your cells have been rearranging in a manner driven by those external stimuli (Along with your chemical state such as what you eat and the air quality where you live). Just as a potter molds clay into a pot, you are molded over your entire life by external signals. In fact, YOU is an illusion. You are identical with the universe.. You are an expression of it.

ALL evidence points towards your (and my) lack of intrinsic identity. We are entirely defined by extrinsic factors. While I remain open to the notion that I might be wrong, the evidence seems to point strongly toward the lack of any individual intrinsic identity (And thus the lack of free will).

There's no "faith" in this. I'm simply saying that all evidence seems to point towards the opposite of the above posts.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

GX

A very fascinating discussion. I tend to agree with Og about the cause and effect of external stimuli and how that builds all of the thoughts, beliefs and habits of the subconscious mind but it fails to explain one thing. How do we evolve? Why do we imagine? Why do we transcend? If everything were merely cause and effect of external stimuli we would be nothing more than static automatons.

Cases in point:
1) How would someone in the 18th century who was raised in a closed religious society with no other information available to him able to transcend his philosophical thought beyond that of the tribe?
2) Where did the inspiration come from for some of the greatest scientific discoveries of times past? It wasnt all done through endless rigid experimentation and the conclusions drawn from that.

My theory is that yes we do have an interconnected individuated consciousness at some subatomic level that drives the subconscious mind similar to how an operating system on a computer drives its applications programs. I have no evidence for this, just my theory.

GX

romansh

1) Is that all the philosophers had at the time? ..... they never left their villages and towns, they did not read books from/about other cultures and philosophies, they did not observe the universe in action? hmmmn .....
2) inspiration from perspiration and observation. .... scientific method. So the answer is yes. We may have our eureka moments, but that is our brains/minds just doing their thing?
3) A theory? .... hmmn .... I would say this does the word theory a disservice, does (may) not meet the requirement for a hypothesis. Probably better described as a guess?

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Og

You underestimate the capacity of 100 billion analog circuit elements that average 10000 connections each to other neurons in the network.

Also, if you're really interested in this, I recommend you look into Jung's description of myths as representations of the human psyche. Gods are our expressions of our world around us. Your god/imagination/transcendent experience is exactly what you are capable of having.

This is a good question. It is clear that it is difficult to accomplish this. This is how the dark ages lasted so long. The church enforced this reality. But just as when christianity was forming, mixing of cultures and ideas has always formulated new concepts that are the sum of its predecessors.

Just as Buddha, Darius, Xerxes, Alexander, Ashoka, etc were instrumental in mixing the eastern and western cultures that ended in the formulation of the christian religion, expansion of the roman catholic empire and it's oppressive reign launched the renaissance.

If you can't find the correlation between events like those you allude to above, it just means you don't understand the context well enough.

This would be Jung's collective unconscious theory. It makes a lot of sense. THe "consciousness" you speak to is nothing like the waking consciousness of a human being in a lucid state, however. It's not sensory consciousness or anything that we're used to experiencing. It can't be as that is clearly fleating and starts and stops at the beginning and end of our lives.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

GX

Yeah, your right, it is my guess but I do believe quantum mechanics has some theories about the interconnectedness of the universe on some subatomic level. But as far a point number 2, lets take this back in time a while in order to understand my point better. I can understand how, for instance, ancient man was able to extrapolate a wheel by observing a falling rock from a mountain, but how was he able to come up with the idea of making a wagon/chariot or whatever out of that wheel when there was no example or idea of that ever before in history? Where did it come from? How did this eureka moment come about? If you have no explanation these kinds of scenarios where there were absolutely no past precedents how do you explain the subsequent eureka moments? You cannot attribute these types of situations solely to external stimuli and sweat. If so I would like to hear it. And while were at it how do you explain several hundred seagulls all taking off to fly at the same time in a split second when they are scattered over a wide swath of beach? My point is that not everything is explainable by the external stimuli hypothesis and that there are mysteries about mankind and nature that we still have yet to unravel and the guess I gave is my guess.

GX

I knew I heard that somewhere before! I should have said the theory I agree with instead of "my theory". That theory makes a lot of sense for me as well and fills in the blanks quite nicely. Thanks for the response and the reading recommendations Og.

GX

romansh

sorry, I was being hard on you.

My experience with eureka moments is generally putting two disparate ideas/observations together. eg mankind probably had been carrying stuff on sticks etc for awhile to spread the load, we learnt this probably much the same way as chimps learnt to catch ants with a stick ... by accident. Man probably noticed we can move heavy stuff on logs.. so the observations keep piling up. My old boss used to say lazyness was the mother of invention. I understand this is all conjecture, but it fits with my experience.
I personally can't but I do know ornithologists are studying this kind of thing. My understanding is that the answers are not as yet definitive, but we don't have to bring in metaphysical or quantum phenomena to explain the highly synchronized behaviour.

not everything is explainable.... your evidence? Not everything currently has a rational explanation ...agreed.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

GX

Nice talking point but nothing definitive here

Why not bring quantum phenomena into this? Why limit yourself? Maybe, ultimately, the quantum theories of interconnectedness and the unified whole have everything to do with this highly synchronized split second behavior. What evidence do you have to exclude quantum phenomena?

Agreed, not everything currently has a rational explanation. Thats what I meant. My logical semantics can be poor at times.