Is it productive for an atheist to engage in discussion about God? - Page 4

Geshtinnanna · 01-14-2008, 11:08 PM

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Originally Posted by ThomasHenry

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Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna

... Actually Lecter and I seem to have a very similar way of thinking....

Given the fact that the average human brain has about 100 billion neurons, with a possible 100 Trillion synaptic connections, it absolutely astounds me that any two of them can ever have a similar way of thinking about ANYTHING.

Nin has over a million fans. All of us have a similar way of worshiping the very ground Trent walks on. You must be fun at parties.

Vinterland · 01-15-2008, 09:15 PM

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Originally Posted by marmalade

Vinterland,

I follow what you say and I have no disagreements. Its just I can feel this distance between my experience of faith and anything that can be stated as logic or belief. I do truly wonder what other people experience. Sometimes people use the same words and still seem light years apart. I'm sure my experience is similar to that of other people, but I don't know how to verify it.

In particular, the word 'God' can mean so many things. Its almost a catch-all phrase for all those experiences that defy easy explanation. I do follow the logic of making statements about God. A statement about God can be logical even God as an experience and/or as a reality defies logical statements. The issue then is whether such a logical statement is a meaningful one and in what way.

When Christians discuss God, what are they actually communicating? What is it that is shared in their respective experiences that allows this to be a meaningful exchange?

I know that I have to go by my own intuition to sense out whether I'm on the same wavelength as another person. For instance, I resonate with much of what AB says. I'm sure that I might have different beliefs than him, but still there is a resonance.

Those are all very interesting questions and I ask if you have ever spoken to a believer such as a Christian who commonly experiences 'God' or believes they do? I think that experiences in general, not just thoise of faith, are harder to explain like what feeling arises in me from listening to Frederic Chopin's Mazurkas. I 'know' the feeling, yet find it hard to explain with words what they do to elevate my mind. I don't think any experiences, regardless of being illogical or logical are ineffable and it just takes a more effort to come to understanding the shared experience.

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Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna

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Sorry I miised this one Gesh, Marmalades response had all my atention, even though your is the only on-topic response since Og's. Do you often find people like Lecter to have radically different thought processes? Is it the difference that makes it so interesting to you?

Actually Lecter and I seem to have a very similar way of thinking. We tend to want to know the why behind a statement. We want to find the logic and have it make sense to us. Neither of us say things without having full knowledge of what we say. We go about our views in similar ways. I would say because we try to be moderate in thought and action. We don't like extremes. And we both tend to be very open minded. We kind of have to be.

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Originally Posted by ThomasHenry

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Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna

... Actually Lecter and I seem to have a very similar way of thinking....

Given the fact that the average human brain has about 100 billion neurons, with a possible 100 Trillion synaptic connections, it absolutely astounds me that any two of them can ever have a similar way of thinking about ANYTHING.

The brain will sever many of those connections to make the processes more efficient. So if a particular region is not properly stimulated the brain has no use for it. Most kids I know grew with near identical family foundations as I did, share almost identical experiences as I do (watching Rugrats, drinking Yahoo, having BBQ's, trips to the lakes, etc ) and learn the same way; I read monkeys learn as we do also. I am not surprised to find that most kids my age think as I do. We have avergae minds that use logic and and we attempt to seperate the good logic from bad logic and then fomr beliefs. The thing that is humbling to me is knowing that regardless of vastly different beliefs and covncitions, we are all so alike and this is what compells me to respect other humans for being...human. I also extend this respect to animals because they to are capable of thought and are similar biologically; one reason why they are used as research very often.

marmalade · 01-15-2008, 11:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Vinterland

Those are all very interesting questions and I ask if you have ever spoken to a believer such as a Christian who commonly experiences 'God' or believes they do?

Yes, I've spoken to many such people. All I can say is that people's experiences of God are different. My dad has had a stronger sense of God or the Holy Spirit as he has aged. To him, its more of a feeling of a presence and an inherent goodness. He was an agnostic earlier in life and is an extremely intellectual and grounded person, but this experience obviously defies his intellect. In many ways, like AB, he still is agnostic because he endlessly questions everything including his experiences of God.

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I think that experiences in general, not just thoise of faith, are harder to explain like what feeling arises in me from listening to Frederic Chopin's Mazurkas. I 'know' the feeling, yet find it hard to explain with words what they do to elevate my mind.

I agree. Its experiences in general.

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I don't think any experiences, regardless of being illogical or logical are ineffable and it just takes a more effort to come to understanding the shared experience.

I've had some experiences that for all practical purposes were ineffable. I could try to explain them, but I doubt I would be able to describe them in a way that you would understand to any great degree. However, if I was talking to someone of a shared experience, then we might start developing a shared language. If you look to the mystical traditions, people have been developing a shared language of strange experiences for thousands of years.

Vinterland · 01-15-2008, 11:32 PM

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Originally Posted by marmalade

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Originally Posted by Vinterland

Those are all very interesting questions and I ask if you have ever spoken to a believer such as a Christian who commonly experiences 'God' or believes they do?

Yes, I've spoken to many such people. All I can say is that people's experiences of God are different. My dad has had a stronger sense of God or the Holy Spirit as he has aged. To him, its more of a feeling of a presence and an inherent goodness. He was an agnostic earlier in life and is an extremely intellectual and grounded person, but this experience obviously defies his intellect. In many ways, like AB, he still is agnostic because he endlessly questions everything including his experiences of God.

Quote:

I think that experiences in general, not just thoise of faith, are harder to explain like what feeling arises in me from listening to Frederic Chopin's Mazurkas. I 'know' the feeling, yet find it hard to explain with words what they do to elevate my mind.

I agree. Its experiences in general.

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I don't think any experiences, regardless of being illogical or logical are ineffable and it just takes a more effort to come to understanding the shared experience.

I've had some experiences that for all practical purposes were ineffable. I could try to explain them, but I doubt I would be able to describe them in a way that you would understand to any great degree. However, if I was talking to someone of a shared experience, then we might start developing a shared language. If you look to the mystical traditions, people have been developing a shared language of strange experiences for thousands of years.

With your words you have painted a great picture as to what the faith is you were referring to. It is something that can be expressed with logic, but the personal meaning is usually not fully communicated from one person to another. I agree it is ineffable to an extent, but it is these 'mystical traditions' that have succeeded in using logic to create a language of 'other worldly' events, yo uthink?

marmalade · 01-15-2008, 11:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Vinterland

I agree it is ineffable to an extent, but it is these 'mystical traditions' that have succeeded in using logic to create a language of 'other worldly' events, yo uthink?

I'm involved on integral forums and this kind of question is something that comes up. All I can say is that their is an internal consistency to some of the languages that have developed around mystical experiences. Basically, you can follow the procedures and if you're dedicated enough eventually you will have similar experiences. Is this just expectation? The thing is even people who don't seek mystical experiences sometimes have mystical experiences.

If you're curious about this kind of thing, Ken Wilber might be the best writer to read as an introduction. Or you can join an integral forum where there are people of all kinds of beliefs and experiences but with a highly agnostic bent to the discussions.