romansh

No it's OK I understood you perfectly the first time

Just have some fun with the "thingy"

experience equals proof???

I agree it's a logic of sorts.

Coming in to to Tacoma airport I saw a yellowy fluorescent sphere (could have been a disc face on) for fraction of a second. Speed I don't know (relatively could have been stationary). Distance don't know, size don't kow. Instinctively/intuitively it was the size of a soccer ball/football or perhaps a little bigger.

So what do I believe in? A yellowish flourescent thingy of indeterminent size that I saw for fraction of a second above Seattle, maybe 10-12 years ago. No more, no less. (Or I believe I saw it).

That I think is logic.

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

marmalade

"So what do I believe in? A yellowish flourescent thingy of indeterminent size that I saw for fraction of a second above Seattle, maybe 10-12 years ago. No more, no less. (Or I believe I saw it)."

First, memory is faulty. Research has shown the more times you recall something the less clear your memory of it becomes. This is because we recreate a memory everytime we remember it. In reality, most of our memories are memories or memories of memories on and on.

Second, our perception is faulty. Did you actually see something or was it a hallucination? If you actually saw something, the most you saw was a flash of light. But a flash of light isn't a thing even though its by light that we see anything. You don't even know if it was light emenating from the hypothetical object or reflecting off of it.

You believe you saw a thing, but why did you immediately think it was a thing? It could've been a life form. It could've been an angel. It could've been a tulpa that your mind had created and now its flying around with a life of its own. Of course, you are a modern person existing in a materialist worldview, and so you believe you saw a thing.

Faith is what is never questioned, it just feels true. You don't know what you saw or that your description of it was accurate. We always seek the simplest answer, but of course we define what is simplest according to the paradigm we exist in. The simplest answer for a modern person is to call it a thing, an object. To an ancient person, the simplest answer would've been to call it a spirit.

romansh

My memory faulty ... I don't recall such a thing.

I am not sure of the exact date but I could check as I was on my way to Reno.

I said "thingy" in that it resembled a thing, but what do I know, it was not a flash, in that it moved relative to the clouds and the aircraft.

I am sure, as I can reasonably be sure, that I am not delusional.
Though ocassionally I do believe I can be intelligent.

You have started speculating as to what I may or may not have seen. In that vein, the only logical explanation I have read, as to what I might have seen, was ball lightning.

Send in people with the white coats and the big hypos.

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There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Vinterland

Sorry I miised this one Gesh, Marmalades response had all my atention, even though your is the only on-topic response since Og's. Do you often find people like Lecter to have radically different thought processes? Is it the difference that makes it so interesting to you?

I tend to dismiss what I consider crazy speak, but only after I've heard it enough times. Since this has gone far off topic with the 'what is logic' discussion, I reitate the intial purpose of this topic which is the question of why do some atheist seekers continue to search for a God, perhaps a loving God, given that logical proof of God isn't likely to poof out of nowwhere any time soon. It seems they know this and continue to search; seems maybe that's where that atheists faith could be.


[quote=marmalade;23459]Faith to me is an experience. I wish I knew how to explain this experience to someone else. The closest I can say is faith is a sense that there is something that is fundamental and inherent to my experience, but what is fundamental and inherent about it is the 64 million dollar question.What kind of sense? Can you relate it to something?

Faith isn't logical or illogical. Faith is non-logical. However, faith can be loosely applied to logic, but there is no direct correlation. This is the problem many believers is that they want to believe faith is logical, but faith as an experience is a separate issue from what they happen to want to believe about it, how they want to interpret it according to specific theologies.

Faith is a non-verbal experience. As such, we can talk circles around it until the end of time. Words are useful towards communication if the people communicating already share an experience such as what I speak of. But if their isn't a shared experience, then they're talking around eachother.
I have faith that I exist, do you? If yes, would you then say that we share this eperience? This faith is illogical, but it remains that there was logic used to come to the conclusion on my part. I felt that I exist, I acknowledged that I believe in my existence. That is the logic I used.

You two don't seem to understand what I mean by my experience of faith. So, I can only assume the word as I'm using it is meaningless to you. The term 'faith' is often used the same as belief or a set of beliefs, and I guess we're limited to talking about it in that way.

If I experienced God, it would be logical to claim to know God. However, no one ever experiences God. People have experiences that they interpret as God and these interpretations are ususally based on social expectations.
Yes, people are often predisposed to believing in a certain something, but I don't think this proves that "no one experiences God". It's an open possibility someone such as Jesus could have directly experience God
So, the statement that "I experienced God" isn't itself logical. In a sense, all our interpretations of our experience can be questioned in this way.

It isn't logical because it is not supported by evidence, but there is logic utilised to make the statement. If I was on a christian forum and most people agreed God exists I can say "God exists" and it is a coherent statement; not necessarily justified or true, but still made by the use of logic. If you can understand what the person is saying and they're not speaking complete gibberish like "oooooooog", I think that is logic. A=A. My faith experience is 'A'. My experience was God. A=A.

tommi atkins

Is it productive to discuss God with theist's?

Sure, Fill your boots. Just dont do it with people you care about.
Remember that religion gives comfort to some people, and if the person is doing no harm, then where is the problem?

As we all know, It's stupidly easy to smash theism. Easier than proving the moon is not made of poptarts. If the person you are debating with wants their world smashed apart then i would say crack on.

marmalade

Vinterland,

I follow what you say and I have no disagreements. Its just I can feel this distance between my experience of faith and anything that can be stated as logic or belief. I do truly wonder what other people experience. Sometimes people use the same words and still seem light years apart. I'm sure my experience is similar to that of other people, but I don't know how to verify it.

In particular, the word 'God' can mean so many things. Its almost a catch-all phrase for all those experiences that defy easy explanation. I do follow the logic of making statements about God. A statement about God can be logical even God as an experience and/or as a reality defies logical statements. The issue then is whether such a logical statement is a meaningful one and in what way.

When Christians discuss God, what are they actually communicating? What is it that is shared in their respective experiences that allows this to be a meaningful exchange?

I know that I have to go by my own intuition to sense out whether I'm on the same wavelength as another person. For instance, I resonate with much of what AB says. I'm sure that I might have different beliefs than him, but still there is a resonance.

romansh

What may be productive from an atheist's point of view, I'll render unto Caesar.

From my own point of view, it clarifies my own personal views, if nothing else.

__________________
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ........... Douglas Adams

Geshtinnanna

Actually Lecter and I seem to have a very similar way of thinking. We tend to want to know the why behind a statement. We want to find the logic and have it make sense to us. Neither of us say things without having full knowledge of what we say. We go about our views in similar ways. I would say because we try to be moderate in thought and action. We don't like extremes. And we both tend to be very open minded. We kind of have to be.

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Telimaktar

I would say yes, the more points of view you have the better chance to make a wise decision.

ThomasHenry

Given the fact that the average human brain has about 100 billion neurons, with a possible 100 Trillion synaptic connections, it absolutely astounds me that any two of them can ever have a similar way of thinking about ANYTHING.

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A spark of the Divine lies within us all.

T. Henry