DizzyDee

I'd like to see some proof for this statement as well. Again, not to be argumentative, but it would be very interesting.

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DizzyDee

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

MickinEngland

In the first century A.D. a Jewish priest by the name of Joseph ben Matthias (later given the Roman name Flavius Josephus) was commissioned by the Roman government to write a history of events in Judea. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus makes reference to Jesus and his disciples - "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. If it be lawful to call him a man, for He was a doer of wonderful works. He was the Christ. And the tribe of Christians so named from Him are not extinct to this day."

In the Babylonian Talmud there are numerous references to the historical existence of Jesus. In the tractate Sanhedrin, 43A, there is a fascinating historical reference to Jesus -
"It has been taught on the eve of the Passover they hanged Yeshua (Jesus). And an announcer went out in front of him for forty days saying, 'He is going to be stoned because He practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of the Passover."

Dead Sea Scroll 4Q246 says "He shall be called the son of God, and they shall call him son of the Most High"


The Koran contains a number of references to Jesus, e.g. -
[Koran 2.253] "[Allah] made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by many degrees of rank, gave clear miracles to Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit"..

MickinEngland

Good call :)
Jesus said there's heaven or there's hell, no other choice at all.
"All in the graves shall come out, to resurrection or damnation" (John 5:28/29)

Hell is possibly far worse than anything we can imagine, far too terrible.
We already know Satan enjoys torturing people on earth -
Jesus said "Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16) then he cured her.

So imagine the fun Satan will have when he gets his hands on people in hell, beyond the help of Jesus.
For example if you're scared of spiders, Satan will throw you in a pit full of them for a million years..
Or if you're scared of blood, he'll rip open your abdomen and twirl your intestines around his fingers for another million..
Even worse, he'll force you to sit in a room full of stuffy fundie christians for another million..
Think about it - God loved us so much that he sent his son to warn us of the unspeakable horror of Hell, Jesus knew he'd be killed but he still went ahead to warn us of the danger..
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philip 2:12 KJV)
"The devil prowls round like a roaring lion" (1 Pet 5:8 )

DizzyDee

Like all the rest of the non-Christian writers whose writings “prove” the historical existence of Jesus, Josephus was not born until after Jesus, man or myth, was safely dead. It is impossible to consider Josephus as a contemporary witness, everything Josephus has relayed must be considered hearsay, it cannot be anything else as he could not have witnessed events before his own birth! Joseph ben Mattathias was born in 37 CE. He was from a privileged Jewish background, he travelled to Rome as a young man and was very impressed with its civilization, he was later forced into a Jewish rebellion against Rome and was captured, in his later life as a Roman citizen he took the name Flavius Josephus. Given his upbringing of orthodox Judaism and his adopted Roman political sympathies he is as likely to be proclaiming Jesus as the Jewish Messiah as Shakespeare would be calling the murderer of a king a working class hero. It is simply incredible for such a man to make such an identification, it goes against everything he believed in.

Parts of your passage quoted above are disputed among scholars, and most believe they were inserted. The Christian apologist scholar Origen, writing a century after the time of Josephus, states clearly that the Jew Josephus does not acknowledge Jesus as Messiah. And yet later, after the establishment of the official Roman church the Christian Eusebius produces the only extant copy of the work of Josephus and lo and behold it contains a clear reference to Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. Of course it is faked. Clumsily. There is a lot of controversy over exactly how much of the passage is faked.

It is believed that Josepheus mentioned Jesus and his trial and death, but the reference about him being "the Christ" or that he rose from the dead are believed to be christian forgeries.

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DizzyDee

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

DizzyDee

I have heard this from Christians so many times it makes me want to pull my hair out.

We know what Caesar looked like, his head is on a coin and there are statues that were carved of him during his lifetime. Where are the likenesses of Jesus?

We have a complete history of his life. In turn, general, orator, historian, statesman and lawgiver. There are a lot of details missing from the life of Jesus.

We have words written by Caesar himself and words written by both his friends and his enemies, these writing date during Ceasar's life. Were are the words that Jesus wrote? What of his friends (remember the earliest written record of Jesus was written by Paul, who never knew Jesus in the flesh). What about the literate Sadducess and Phairisee's? If Jesus was such a threat, why didn't they write of him? What about the leaders of the synagogues in which Jesus spoke - did they leave records?

Artifacts confirm Ceasar's life and death, as do his successors. As noted above there are statues that were carved of him during his lifetime.

We know exactly when Ceasar was born and when and how he died. Do we have exact dates of Jesus, or just educated guesses?

Caesar established a style of government – and a calendar – which endured for centuries. Jesus did not even establish a church - Paul did!

Let's put this old argument to rest. Sorry had to let off some steam.

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DizzyDee

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

The An-Jel

I am currently under the belief that Jesus imbibed incredible quantities of man gue in the Roman Bathhouses and was hailed (as well as inhaled) as the Lord and God of his trade. He was killed because he resisted this title of " God Of Rod. " Only a thought.

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"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

MickinEngland

Lets just suppose there are demons around who are like alien parasites, invading human hosts so they can use their mouths to speak through..
They'd say pretty much the same sort of stuff you do in most of your posts wouldn't they?
Keep on proving it for me, thanks.. ;)

QUITE AN EXPERIENCE by Mick
My Christian Evangelist friend and his wife stayed with me earlier this year, they're not on the internet at home, so I was happy to show them around the message boards on my PC, and they were gobsmacked.
"Mick" my mate said, "when you told me we can actually hear demons speaking through their victims mouths on the religious boards I thought you were joking, but now I've seen it with my own eyes and its been a fantastic learning experience"

The An-Jel

I hope so Mick, I really hope those type of people speak... how many Christians have been found with the dick in the mouth than non-Christians. I bet more serial killers ask your "God" for forgiveness than they do any god I could imagine. I know yours is a nice pearly gate but my God(s) I imagine are strength and power, I think by far the more powerful. Your a Christian Git and thats about it. I am sure you are there to pollute England and America by getting online. The IRA is all about belief but I think it was against tyranny like Evangelical Christianity we are suffering now. I bet you would kill for Jesus.

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"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

MickinEngland

Ha ha ha, GET MAD at satan, don't let him try to twist your thoughts, just ignore him.
All Christians hate his guts and that hatred gives us power over him.
The creep is already beat, look whats in store for him -
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev 20:10)

So he's just having a last mad fling like a spoilt brat making sh-t happen all over the world.
Let him rant and rave and have tantrums, but just ignore him when he tries to use your mouth to speak through.. ;)

LadyLuck

Hey I was skimming yall's little brawl here, and you got me thinking (a rare occurence). ANYWAY Mick i have a question for you, I'm not being a smart ass I'm really just asking an honest question. Ok you said that Christians hate the devil, and that makes sense of course ^^.

But didn't god tell you to love everyone, and forgive everyone. And isn't hate a sin? I know this seems far-fetched because were talking about the devil here, but what does god think of lucifer? Does he hate him? Could this be considered a flaw of your prefect god? Again really not bashing just asking a question.

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