Sa\/en

I don’t know if this question has already been asked here.

This question focuses around the issue of free will and the issue of being punished for our decisions.

Free-will does not exist in the sense that we are born in a certain environment, which influences our actions, our morals. Our genetics determine if we can become a sportsman or not. If you’re born with no legs, certain aspects of life will be eliminated. If your parents were abusive, it will influence the way you relate to other people. All these things sculpt you as a person. Cause and effect. We can apply this reasoning on an atomic level.

Anyway, to the point… How can god punish us if we ultimately have no free control over our decisions? If our entire life is determined by our genetics and our environment, how can god punish us for the decisions we make?

duck

Several people on this forum will disagree with me on this one, but there is no basis for arguing that life and choices are totally environmental. Reflective and introspective people will exercise free will in ways that can amaze us.

Everything balances with choice, environment, genetics, etc.

__________________
Religion: The ultimate definition of verisimilitude

Sa\/en

Free will exists in the sense that we can have the sensation of hunger, and we can fulfill that sensation by eating the apple. In this light, our will has been fulfilled. We chose the apple and nothing was in the way of that choice. I think this is known as Compatibilism.

But fulfilling your will and having free will are different concepts, imo. Many thought that quantum mechanics would allow free will, because of its indeterminate nature. But in reality, quantum mechanics does not help the issue of free will any more than determinism. I think that the problem of free will is that man sees himself as independent from the rest of the universe, thinking that the world outside him does not affect him. But in reality, the human body is not an isolated system. The human body together with the planets, stars and solar systems, create a system of their own.

Duck, what exactly do you mean when you said that there is no basis for arguing that life and choices are totally environmental? What else is there besides our genetics and our environment? (By environment, I mean all the systems we interact with)

Geshtinnanna

I am not really feeling this 'punishing' thing for our decisions bit. The fact is when you choose the action you also choose the consequence. Some people just don't think past the action. That's how you end up with a belly on fire after eating too many jalapeno poppers. No one is punishing you. You were just an idiot.

__________________

The An-Jel

You know duck not everything balances these choices but they do have`a`remarkable influence. I would bet that half of the Christians and More than that of the Muslims depend on cultural influences.

As an agnostic it takes a simple person with a simple mind. I stress that... a simple mind... that there is no God as we know it.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

Og

Well put. Schopenhauer makes the distinction in your first paragraph of freedom of action and freedom of will.

The notion of free will (i.e. you can be an effect without a cause) doesn't track at all. Think of your reason for any given action. Ask yourself: "Could I change my reason for action?" If you could, then what would your reason for changing your action be? This turns into an infinite regression.

You have reasons for action. Whatever they are. These are your motivations and you can not change them. If you did, then your real motivations and reasons describe your change of your reasons and you can not change those.

You are a driven machine. Environmental variables are processed, logged, interpreted, integrated, etc for your whole life and your behavior is a derived process corresponding to your current state responding to your current inptus as they are correlated with your past experiences.

Deterministic or not, free will (The notion that you are some individual entity in an ultimate sense) is false.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Lecter

Maybe free will is the wrong term.

Let's just say we have options and we can choose between those options.

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.

Sa\/en

The 'punishing' part was a comment on hell.

Og

But that says nothing. It doesn't speak to will at all. It simply says that you have the ability to select a behavior based on your current state of being and inputs (sensory/chemical/etc). It doesn't speak to how that selection process is carried out or what agents are involved in it.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Lecter

Well that's kinda what I mean. No matter how much 'free will' you have, you're not gonna be able to fly just because you want it.

We are given certain choices, and all we can do is choose.

__________________
I'm only laughing on the outside / My smile is just skin deep / If you could see inside I'm really crying / You might join me for a weep.