Free Will and God - Page 2

Geshtinnanna · 10-15-2007, 09:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Sa\/en

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Originally Posted by Geshtinnanna

I am not really feeling this 'punishing' thing for our decisions bit.

The 'punishing' part was a comment on hell.

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Originally Posted by Og

Deterministic or not, free will (The notion that you are some individual entity in an ultimate sense) is false.

What Hell?

Og · 10-15-2007, 09:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Lecter

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Originally Posted by Og

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Originally Posted by Lecter

Maybe free will is the wrong term.

Let's just say we have options and we can choose between those options.

But that says nothing. It doesn't speak to will at all. It simply says that you have the ability to select a behavior based on your current state of being and inputs (sensory/chemical/etc). It doesn't speak to how that selection process is carried out or what agents are involved in it.

Well that's kinda what I mean. No matter how much 'free will' you have, you're not gonna be able to fly just because you want it.

We are given certain choices, and all we can do is choose.

This is like saying that a TV chooses to turn on when you hit the power button.

Lecter · 10-15-2007, 09:32 PM

No, that's not what I meant.

I mean like if you're standing in front of the TV, no matter how much you are willing, the TV isn't gonna turn itself on just because you want it. At some point you're gonna have to use the remote to turn it on. Or you can go to the TV and also turn it on, that's another option, and so on.

Understand what I mean?

Sa\/en · 10-18-2007, 01:26 AM

I’m referring to the Christian concept of hell. Luke 12:5 records Jesus speaking about God's Judgment: "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath Power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.". Specifically, most modern Christians see Hell as the eternal punishment for unrepentant sinners, as well as for the Devil and his demons.

Geshtinnanna · 10-18-2007, 02:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Sa\/en

I don’t know if this question has already been asked here.

This question focuses around the issue of free will and the issue of being punished for our decisions.

Free-will does not exist in the sense that we are born in a certain environment, which influences our actions, our morals. Our genetics determine if we can become a sportsman or not. If you’re born with no legs, certain aspects of life will be eliminated. If your parents were abusive, it will influence the way you relate to other people. All these things sculpt you as a person. Cause and effect. We can apply this reasoning on an atomic level.

Anyway, to the point… How can god punish us if we ultimately have no free control over our decisions? If our entire life is determined by our genetics and our environment, how can god punish us for the decisions we make?

Ok I get what you are trying to get at. I must add that even in a confined situation you still have free will on what you can control...which is your action about the situation at hand. As in I am tied up and tortured. All free will seemingly taken from me. Not so. I still have the CHOICE to either cry like a baby or go out hard core and spit in the face of my captor. Unless comatose, when you have the idea in your head of this or that you are indeed showing free will. Our environment and our genetics does not encapsulate our entire being and life. It's what we choose to do with that or in spite of that that gives us free will.

Sa\/en · 10-18-2007, 01:01 PM

What you’re referring to is known as the freedom of action. The freedom of action and the freedom of will are different ideas. When you choose to cry or spit in the face of your captor, it is not an example of freewill, rather freedom of action. You have the ability to choose two different options, those options being spitting or crying.

Freewill is a concept that says that you can make a free choice without any external influence affecting your choice, that choice being ultimately free. But reality does not work like this. We have freedom of action but not freedom of will.

Geshtinnanna · 10-18-2007, 11:40 PM

Oh ok. Well I was responding in the biblical sense since you brought that up about God punishing and stuff. That has nothing to do with that kind of free will. So which is it we are talking about because I am now confused

Sa\/en · 10-19-2007, 02:41 AM

It is said that we are punished for the decisions we make. My point is that those decisions are never ultimately free. If I had to place Mother Theresa’s “soul” in Hitler’s body, Hitler would have still done the same things, even if mother Theresa’s soul was in that Hitler’s body.

Another analogy would be being thrown into a tank (the soul put into the body), and someone sets that tank in fourth gear into a crowd of people. After you’ve killed 90 people, you are taken out and tortured and eventually shot execution style in the head.

I just see something really, really wrong about this. If Gandhi was placed in the tank, poor him, he’d also kill 90 people.

If you’re born in the wrong body, poor you.

Geshtinnanna · 10-21-2007, 07:28 PM

Technically you have no proof what Hitler would do with a Saint's soul. Unless you have some nifty crystal ball that says differently. And since we can't change that I don't even bother with it.

LadyLuck · 10-21-2007, 11:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Sa\/en

It is said that we are punished for the decisions we make. My point is that those decisions are never ultimately free. If I had to place Mother Theresa’s “soul” in Hitler’s body, Hitler would have still done the same things, even if mother Theresa’s soul was in that Hitler’s body.

Another analogy would be being thrown into a tank (the soul put into the body), and someone sets that tank in fourth gear into a crowd of people. After you’ve killed 90 people, you are taken out and tortured and eventually shot execution style in the head.

I just see something really, really wrong about this. If Gandhi was placed in the tank, poor him, he’d also kill 90 people.

If you’re born in the wrong body, poor you.

I think i get cha bro! However, I think the term 'soul' is too loose. The word really doesn't even make sense to me (going off on a tangent, what is the agnostic ideal about the soul, do we have one???). Now i know nothing about all that quantum technical stuff, but i think if mother Teresa's brain was placed in Hitler's body, then perhaps the influences would have affected him differently. I don't think his body would have acted in the same way if he had a different way to process his experiences in life. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't believe in invisible forces that govern our personalities...I think a big part of how we make decisions is based on how we are influenced, but also our chemical composition that allows us to arrive at such a decision, or gives us a motive. For lack of a better example: If some mentally retarded kid's brain was swapped for Hitler's, I'm pretty sure his actions would be different.

I guess to properly address your point you have to believe in the existence of souls, and that they are assigned to a body...so this might have been an irrelevant post, oh well!