Og

Explain how you know that human perception is limited. How do you perceive this limitation? Or are you just saying the words together in a sentence with no reason behind it?

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Searcher

Just to point out, it was not me who said this. It was Og. I posted a reply to his comment, as to what I thought you meant by the statement.

Og, I have read a lot of your posts. I really identify with about 95% or more of what you post. But I am puzzled somewhat by the strength of the statement above. Of course you are entitled to dismiss whatever experience he is alluding to, but to say the above seems to me, at best, an overreaction.

Please could you explain it further so I understand your reasoning?

As it stands, I think you are actually demonstrating the point he was trying to make.

Og

Hrm. Think about the term supernatural and ask yourself what it means. Does it mean that it is utterly unbounded and totally random? Are there rules that govern this supernatural thing? How does it interact with the natural world? What is the interface?

It just doesn't make any sense to say that something is "supernatural"... The point of saying that is to make a stance that says something can't be understood and that it must remain subjective experience in order to support your own world view.

By making this statement, you are going down the route of the dogmatic nut-job (hence the bias/fascism comment). If an event occurs, it can be understood objectively... Supernatural is a word that only implies ignorance. The term "natural" is in no way limiting.. Hence, no meaning for super- (or sub-) natural events.

I really don't know how to effectively describe the gibberish involved when one invokes magic or supernatural. It is just a plain nonsensical statement that is motivated by other REAL and NATURAL things effecting that person's life.

Supernatural is a null word. One man's magic is another man's engineering.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Searcher

I can agree with you to quite a degree.

However I know my wife, as a religious person, does believe in the supernatural. I can think of a few explanations and things that implies, fascism isn't one of them. Maybe I can break it down a bit:

I can understand where the terms psychotic, ignorance, subjectivity and bias come from. I could actually go so far as to say my wife might have elements, however small, of all of these if you look at it from the agnostic perspective. Although those probably aren't the words I would choose, and I would have no problem in finding even stronger words which describe her in a far better light. Selfless, caring, thoughtful and hundreds of other words spring to mind. But there is no need for me to justify my love for my wife here.

So I guess it's the fascism part which caught me out. How is accepting there may be such a thing as the supernatural anything to do with fascism?

Og

A cosmic control mechanism. Instead of being something that can be shared and understood, it is something that you must believe and not question and get in step behind. And if you don't, well, "i'm sorry that you don't have the same subjective experience that I do" and other such manipulative language. It prey's on people's desire to be part of something bigger without actually connecting with something real.

It takes control of their minds and tells them to stop trying to understand. And particularly in the case of the supernatural entities of the western mind, you have purely fascist gods who monitor your every thought and are absolute dictator of the universe and absolutely judge you based on both your deeds and thoughts at the end of your life (i.e. you can't even escape through death).

Supernatural is a term cooked up by facist religious organizations (i.e. the roman catholic church) and is designed to control the population. That's what I'm talking about.

The word has no value for anything other than subtle control of a group of people.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Searcher

Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick. You don't seem to be talking about someone who believes themselves to have experienced something they can only consider supernatural, but rather an organisation which states the supernatural must be accepted.

I interpreted this statement to imply that anyone who believes there might be such a thing as supernatural, or even accepts such a thing might be possible even if they don't really believe in it themselves, is all of the above. That's how it read to me.

I can see why we might think each of those things may contribute to someones belief in the supernatural. I think it's going too far to suggest anyone who does not completely dismiss all supernatural is a psychotic, ignorant, subjective, biased fascist. I'm still not sure if that's what you really meant, but it's how it read to me.

Og

I understand how you're interpreting what I'm saying. It works that way too.

The term supernatural doesn't make any sense, period. It just doesn't. If it's comprehensible, and has an effect, it's natural. If something is "above" nature in some way then it's comprehensible and nature should be expanded to include this concept.

Supernatural is a term ONLY used to limit the human spirit (ironically).

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Searcher

I see where that is coming from, but I still don't see it as correct to imply anyone who believes in the supernatural is fascist. The victim of a fascist regime designed to control, perhaps. Gullible, ignorant, bias, yes I can see why those are implied. But being ignorant, gullible, ignorant and bias does not make someone a fascist. I don't see the personal connection. I just see that such beliefs could (and no doubt have been and still are) used by fascist regimes to control those who are 'susceptible'.

Leaving that aside, this discussion of 'supernatural' is very interesting to me. You make some good points I will be thinking about quite a lot.

I used to believe in such things as ghosts etc being possible, and if so having a scientific explanation. Such things would not be truly supernatural though, they would be explainable by science even if it is science currently beyond our understanding. Once it became within our understanding it would no longer be a mystery, we may even be able to control or reproduce it.

More recently I took supernatural as meaning it is beyond the rules of science and thus unproveable or disproveable by scienctific experiment by definition. I came to the conclusion that a God in the traditional sense would have to fit such a definition, that while I am skeptical as to such a thing existing, others may have experiences which give them the personal evidence I feel is lacking from my own experiences. Who am I to tell them they imagined it, or they were tricked? To dismiss anyone who claims to have had a 'supernatural' experience as a psychotic seemed arrogant and closed minded. I try not to be either.

But you are right to point out that in this sense the entire meaning is so broad as to be massively open to abuse. It leads to the flying teapot and spaghetti monster arguments which reduce such ideas to a state of ridicule. Nothing in this sense is disproveable, that doesn't make them true.

There may yet be many things we are unable to explain. Which are so rare we cannot reproduce them, but do have a scientific and natural explanation. The fact M-theory works on the principle of 11 dimensions is just one clue that there is still a lot to learn about what these things really mean. Can we ever find these in anything but theoretical physics? What do they do? If anything?

I'm still highly skeptical about it all. You make a good point, I was just somewhat surprised as to why you would use such brash terminology to debunk the idea, rather than the more logical and understandable explanations you have given since.

Searcher

I for one would like to hear what your experiences were. I can't speak for everyone else, but since it is such a critically important issue when discussing such things, I seems wholly relavent to the discussion to share this with us.

Og

This is mainly my point. The people who turn away from rational thought are the ones that enable the rise of fascist leaders. It's exactly this mindset that is preyed upon and that enables the worst elements of the behavior of the Bush administration in the US, for example. People like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly and Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell and their ilk lead dogmatic cult followers in mini fascist regimes.

They get in the way of reasoned argument and positive progress in the world through their credulity and each one of them wields the supernatural card.

And it's the people that give up their rational capacity by accepting the notion of supernatural as valid that are taken in by it.

The question was this. It seemed like a sociological question to me. Going the route of the "Believer's viewpoint" enables the worst elements of society. They enable the "drink the kool-aid or get out" partisan crap that is fundamental to fascist regimes and us vs them mentalities. It enables the worst bigotries because it closes the mind.

If a thing or event can be understood then it is natural. If there are no rules governing something then nothing can be said about this thing. It can not have coherent behaviors... Even trying to describe such a thing is a psychotic task.

Supernatural is a null word. It is used to manipulate. People are fooled into thinking that those that reject supernatural are small minded and to be pitied. This is the essence of the original poster's comments. It creates an us vs them mentality and give the one with supernatural experience the feeling of the righteous path.

There is, in fact, not value to the stance. The agnostic path is the honest, humble, and empowering path and it has room for everyone. The notion of the scientific approach is a broad an enabling perspective of the world and need not worry about building a border inside which it solidifies against those that disagree with it. In fact, science does it's own self-policing on these terms. And it's self correction puts it as close as you can get to the truth.

The supernatural path is not open-minded. It's gullibility and close-mindedness. Accepting it is to support fascism. It's the essence of what is required for the success of fascism.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are