Melchizedek

Richard Dawkins says -

" Natural selection, the blind, unconscious, automatic process which Darwin discovered, and which we now know is the explanation for the existence and apparently purposeful form of all life, has no purpose in mind. It has no mind and no mind's eye. It does not plan for the future. It has no vision, no foresight, no sight at all. If it can be said to play the role of watchmaker in nature, it is the blind watchmaker "

How stupid to suggest that nature has no plan,when the humans who sprang up for it have lots of plans for the world and each other. Granted some of these plans are less than noble,there have always been evil men and women,tyrants,but there is nothing these sour faced functionalists can do to explain away the reason why more people on earth believe in God than not,why their is a surge of interest in all forms of spirituality

When it comes to kin altruism,reciprocal altruism,modern philosophers have no problem drawing conclusions from the lives of living creatures other than humans,the bee which stings and therefore dies to protect the hive,the meercat which endangers its life for the sake of the group,the lives of ants,it goes on and on,yet when it comes to humans they know very little. So if the selfishness of animals and insects in general is an indication that humans too are selfish since they are "merely" evolved animals,and that there is no soul,no spirit, then why all the fuss over poetry,love,art,beauty,all of that ? Why the fuss over divorce,death,when someone is divorced after 20 years of marriage and is broken hearted because their partner cheated on them and left,just tell them "ah whats the fuss,loves an illusion,your genes are hoodwinking you,your pain isnt real,your being silly!"

If a man who saves his own only child from being hit by a bus and dying is killed himself in the process some philosophers will argue that it was essentially a form of selfishness,kin altruism,but if that man were truly selfish he would allow the child to be hit by a bus thinking,i,ll just create another child with my wife,me being alive is more important,i can go on to make several other children"

When someone has a member of their family murdered and they begin crying and mourning on hearing the news,just tell them "cheer up ! at least your alive,stop fussing,it was only a murder"

Some Idiotic philosphers have no explanation for life because they are far too caught up now to be able to understand simple things anymore,their minds are full of intellectual garbage

Yes nature is intelligent,but not in the way some imagine,it has a plan in mind,and that plan was to imbue humans with sense of reason which can only be called divine.The earth has no purpose ?!?! Yet there are more humans who believe in a spirit,a soul,than not,this leaves the "theory" of the blind watch maker in the dust,the plan of the universe has been unfolding gradually for several millenia

Call it an illusion,superstition,or a fear of life,like it or not spirituality grows,the people who practice a spiritual path which also involves the belief in some sort of deity is growing,not because as some idiots would have you believe because the world is becoming dimmer,and people less reasonable,but because the universe has a plan to have mankind develop patience,humility,understanding,tolerance,for humanity to live in peace, thats why spirituality grows,despite every attempt of certain dimwits who call themselves philosphers to prevent it from happening

Man is not destined to be selfish,but selfless,this is a fact,that most people at the moment are still very selfish is no reasonable argument against selflessness,if people were truly selfish they wouldnt give up their lives for others,they would preserve their own,yet many dont,many wouldnt,there is the proof

The An-Jel

Absolutely preposterous Mel. Look at the life cycle of a living creature. It is born... involuntarily, it eats, drinks, and breathes... involuntarily, it breeds... involuntarily, and it dies... involuntarily. Now there are little fuzzy parts that can be assumed in the middle two statements but essentially my statement is correct. A person eats and drinks to maintain health and continued existence. The same can be said about breeding... it is the only source of immortality for a living creature and also a natural imperative to keep the species in existence. All the "selfless and altruistic" expressions you define are nothing more than a selfish means of keeping ones own bloodline in the mix which is wholly natural and nothing voluntary about it. If the child or relative remains alive like in your bus analogy then that person's essence remains alive.

You have absolutely no proof that humans here on Earth has evolved into anything selfless but it is finding grander and grander ways to keep itself perpetuating. Even claiming this selflessness and altruistic approach is again a self promoting act in itself. By claiming it is selfless you have garnered meaning to an existence that so far appears meaningless. I mean if you're whole family line ceased to exist what would be the effect, that is to say what would happen to the vacuum that would take your family's place? If you thought about it I think you would agree that another person would take it's place... while they wouldn't be your family necessarily they would still perform all the involuntary traits your family had in just their own way. No I completely in this instance totally disagree with you Mel.

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

Melchizedek

No,whats preposterous is that you can disagree and be so sure despite there being no evidence to show that humans are nothing but a selfish gene,when there is evidence to support that although we are selfish creatures,we are also capable of,and actually celebrate more,the ability in humans to act selflessly,thats why when people erect statues they normally erect them to people who thought about others before themselves,quite simple really,why in films,and books,the hero is always someone who is selfless,yet as its so simple its a bit like missing the trees for the wood for some so called intellectuals

while so many others have their heads buried in philosophical books,and are bent on arguing and thinking intensively alongside others of the same mind at universities and colleges against any idea that humans are capable of being truly selfless,busy constantly questioning life before coming up with some unrealistic theory of the human mind,some people are observing human nature and drawing conclusions from very simple things before deciding there is actually more to life,that there is plenty of evidence to support humans having a soul,a spirit,and that they are evolving into the creature they are,one that wishes deep in its heart to behave selflessly,only some people have,nt the courage to follow their higher reasoning

And their are more people who believe this is so than there are who believe we are utterly selfish,and that there is no soul or spirit

Not that educations a bad thing,but this insistence by the supposed "great philosophical minds" of our time that life essentially amounts to nothing has become tiresome to those that also have an education,but have,nt forgotten their spiritual life

Everything points towards a spirit,a soul,this is why people behave the way they do. Granted psychology is complicated,but morals are,nt decided upon because to get along humans have merely agreed on a set of rules to make life easier,its that the morals reflect what is in the hearts of humans and thats why the morals are set in place because they cannot deny whats in their hearts,hence the reason why most films which do well are those which have a tale,a tale of the good versus the bad,where the good prevails,and there is hope !

Tell me,why do humans sometimes mourn over the dead for years if their life basically amounts to nothing,why make a big deal over death ? and are humans so thick and stupid then that they can spend years in a depression over an incident which should if your right only be a blip?

Why do people write so many poems about love if love is an illusion,mere genes hoodwinking us into surviving ?

What is a broken heart, Do you have an answer to that ?

A mother or father will die for their child,as I,ve said,if we were really selfish we would allow the child to die and look after No1 and just have other offspring as animals do !! without developing any mental problems along the way as many people do when they lose a child

We are not the same as animals

Og

This thread is 100% gibberish. It's flagrant mischaracterization of scientific thought. You're throwing the lemming offensive out there pretty darn hard. The language and rhetoric in these posts is all over the place.

At any rate.. nice to have another crazy fundie on the boards.. it's been a while since any fresh meat showed up Welcome.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

Furthermore, it shows a complete lack of understanding and appreciation for the complexity of the systems involved in these "illusions" and the scale of the space and time in which they exist and evolved.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

duck

Well, to me life is everything. What happens before and after are the nothing.

Melchizedek

Answer the questions I set first {if you can} before jumping to conclusions

Well at least explain yourself no ?

What illusions are these ?

Og

State your questions succinctly and briefly in a post separate from the above blocks of text. Try to refrain from colorful language.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

Life amounts to nothing? I don't think your beef here is with a scientific/naturalistic understanding of the world. I think your beef is with your understanding of the philosophy. Who said that life amounts to nothing? This is impossible. You exist. It is already amounting to something.

This is the point where you demonstrate your ignorance for the complexity and magnitude of the systems and time scales involved in producing the above stuff that you discard as "mere genes"... You obviously have a complete lack of appreciation for the reality of the systems you're discarding. Try studying.

And who said that love is an illusion? And even if it is an illusion, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.. An illusion is just something that appears other than it is.

Are you serious? Look it up. There are a variety of types of heart break. This is something to do with relationship psychology and sociology... What does this have to do with anything?

Huh? We are animals.. This is a definition of a term.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Melchizedek

Naturally I never meant life amounts to nothing in the way you think I did,that would be silly. Rather,if there is no soul or spirit,and morals only hold up because of the sheer number of people who agree on them and not because they are of God,then naturally it would be ok for a man to rape who feels there is nothing wrong with rape,as long as he isnt caught,because in his mind,its right for him,the difference is my friend your philosophy will not heal,it will not change the world,mine shall,and Im well aware my life amounts to something divine,but what do you say your life amounts to ? Who are you ?

Then explain it for us then,if you can,as I asked initially

ahhh...funny,why dont you try answering instead of evading?? Explain then what love is using your knowledge of these "systems',these "scales",can you ??

Im not saying love is "mere genes",but many philosophers do,of course there is a long winded way of expressing that point of view,but functionalist philosophy boils down to just that,that we have no spirit,no soul

You must learn that what you think you know is nothing more than words,words which amount to nothing in the end,words that wont change humanity for the better,or help bring about the spirit of philanthropy required

The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish,
and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten.

The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten.

The purpose of words is to convey ideas.
When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.

-Chuang Tzu

Thats because you have not grasped the nature of reality,but still rely on books to understand,you still need big words,fancy ideas,those with more clarity have left that behind in place of something better

we are not the same as animals in as much as our soul makes us far more complicated and able to do much more marvelous things,obviously though we live in a shell which is made of flesh and requires we eat,breathe,etc,like all other animals