Melchizedek

"evolution involves a continual increase of order, of organization, of size, of complexity. It seems axiomatic that both cannot possibly be true. But there is no question whatever that the second law of thermodynamics is true’”
Morris, Henry M., The Twilight of Evolution, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1967, p. 35

??

Og

I know quite a bit about the contents of my signature including pure (undifferntiated) consciousness and bliss. I know the source and context of the quotes above and have a strong understanding of hindu forms from a western perspective.

If you'd like to start another thread on this topic, please do, but this is not related to the collapse of atheism as hindus and buddhists are shining examples of atheistic mythologies that are the oldest surviving mythologies on earth. So when you go on about atheism puttering out, it's probably good to steer clear of the eastern religions.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

I've had this crap thrown about for years by people who have no understanding of a closed system. The earth is certainly not a closed system. It continuously receives energy input from the sun and from the warm core and from a variety of other intermediate factors such as tidal forces and the earth's rotation.

All of these factors can, without violating the laws of thermodynamics, increase the complexity of patterns on earth. The point is that the entire universe has increasing entropy because it is expanding.

Your claim here is false. It's akin to saying that it is impossible to clean up your room. Of course you can, as long as you put energy into it.

So, your claim that evolution violates any of the laws of thermodynamics is false.

Next.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Melchizedek

Sidetracking here,but nonetheless. Your mistaken,both hindus and buddhists believe in Gods. You dont have the strong understanding of hinduism or buddhism you think you have it seems,but thats fine,we can perhaps discuss that as you say in another thread,but for now,please answer my question on evolution and thermodynamics

Og

I answered your question on evolution and thermodynamics.

Also, I stand by my statement that Buddhist and Hindus are atheistic religions. I stand by it based on the work of Heinrich Zimmer and Adolf Bastian and of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung and many other Indologists and Comparative mythologists.

There are certainly god images in these religions, but the ULTIMATE realization of the spiritual path in hinduism and buddhism is as I say in my signature.. "Tat Tvam Asi"... The gods are within you, not "out there." There is a whole range of hindu art where the gods are beheading themselves to free your mind from their enslavement. The hindu 7th chakra path (sahasrara) to nirvana is of this realization of no distinctions.

In both Hinduism and Buddhism, the gods are vehicles to the divine. They are a boat which you use to sail to the yonder shore. They are NOT ultimately important to the realization.

This is fundamental buddhism and hinduism. I can give further details and links to books of scholarly work on the topic. Buddhism and hinduism are, at their apex, atheistic religions.

Next.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Og

I'm also interested in your response to the evidence for evolution based on genetic homology. If you'd like copies of any of the articles in the link I sent, please PM me. I can access the PDFs from my institution and will be happy to send them your way.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

pseudonous

I probably am misunderstanding the confusion here but it sounds like someone is saying that the organization of biological processes contradicts the second law of thermodynamic. I certainly am not contradicting Og's answer but I think I have another explanation which may help this make more sense.

Consider the bubbles that come out of soda pop. This process is driven by entropy, but I hope you will also see that it involves an increase in organization not randomness. This is much the same thing that happens in organisms. I would also like to point out that the technical definition of entropy has to do with degrees of freedom not chaos. Hope this helps shed a little light on the subject.

Og

Furthermore, it is the second law of thermodynamics that give every component of cells their shape. Each protein and membrane and organelle contains components that reach thermodynamic equilibrium with their environment. ALL chemical processes cause local decreases in entropy at the expense of entropy of glucose and oxygen in the krebb's cycle to produce ATP. Then this energy molecule helps to drive other molecules in reactions. All of these reactions are driven by the laws of thermodynamics.

The brain is a computer that is driven by chemical potentials (i.e. entropic potentials) instead of voltages (i.e. electronic potentials). This is the nature of all biological organisms.

In fact, not only does the theory of evolution NOT contradict the laws of thermodynamics, the processes involve in life DEMONSTRATE the laws of thermodynamics.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Melchizedek

Yes,you do seem to have a grasp of Hindu forms from a "western perspective"
But you cannot understand Hinduism intellectually.Which is the problem with western perspectives on eastern cultures,people in the west often misunderstand the principles of Buddhism,Hinduism and the rest because westerners often need "proof of something before they believe in it,and that is the problem,they look for the proof in the wrong places.

And you cannot hope to advance in any spiritual tradition without first mastering the basics,controlling yourself. It is a bad mistake for people to make to believe they understand spirituality when they have not first gained control over themselves

Like the building of a house,you must start with a foundation,without that the rest crumbles.And this is the reason why so many people who follow spirtual paths eventually fall apart,lose their faith,become bitter and egotistical,because their foundation was shoddy to begin with

It was not said that a wise man builds his house on the rock for no reason ,the rock is symbollic for a solid foundation,a foundation which will ensure that when in the face of trials the initiate shall not fail

From the laws of manu

6. Abusing others, speaking untruth, detracting from the merits of all men, and talking idly, shall be the four kinds of evil verbal action

10. That man is called a true tridandin in whose mind are these three, the control over his speech ,vagdanda, the control over his thoughts ,manodanda, and the control over his body ,kayadanda, are firmly fixed

Hmmm....to have a full grasp of Hinduism we first must be able to understand its spiritual principles,practice them ! Unless you control all three things together,mind,speech,and body,you cannot have control over anything.Therefore when someone eats too much,rest assured he will talk too much,and be assured he will think too much. If he is not in control of his diet,does not have a precise understanding of food and the nutrients it contains,the way his body processes food,eats the wrong things,he will also say the wrong things,and be a victim of brutishness,vulgarity,if he is a victim of vulgarity,he will think vulgar things,therefore he cannot think properly or meditate,therefore he cannot know peace

The laws of manu

52. His meal will procure long life, if he eats facing the east; fame, if he turns to the south; prosperity, if he turns to the west; truthfulness, if he faces the east

53. Let a twice-born man always eat his food with concentrated mind, after performing an ablution; and after he has eaten, let him duly cleanse himself with water and sprinkle the cavities (of his head)

54. Let him always worship his food, and eat it without contempt; when he sees it, let him rejoice, show a pleased face, and pray that he may always obtain it

55. Food, that is always worshipped, gives strength and manly vigour; but eaten irreverently, it destroys them both

56. Let him not give to any man what he leaves, and beware of eating between (the two meal-times); let him not over-eat himself, nor go anywhere without having purified himself (after his meal)

57. Excessive eating is prejudicial to health, to fame, and to (bliss in) heaven; it prevents (the acquisition of) spiritual merit, and is odious among men; one ought, for these reasons, to avoid it carefully

Lol , Indeed,atheists are welcome in hinduism,but thats only because Indian Hindus are extremely tolerant people,it does not mean hinduism is an atheistic religion !

There are reasons for why Hinduism allows for atheism,it is because that Hindus believe God is indescribable,therefore they dont make as big a deal about how someone thinks,what they believe,as long as they are being a good person,and I have to agree that that is what is more important,ive met some atheists who are have more morality than some so called theists,some atheists who are better people

You have misunderstood :

"Brahma Satyam
Jagan Mithya
Jivo Brahmaiva Na Parah"

translates as :

"God alone is real,
The world is unreal,
The individual is none other than God"

yes we are God,a part of God,but this does not mean,never has meant,that man alone is God,and that beings outside himself do not exist. Hindus believe Gods created the world,believe there are supernatural beings in the universe

The laws of manu

4. He, whose power is measureless, being thus asked by the high-minded great sages, duly honoured them, and answered, 'Listen!'

5. This (universe) existed in the shape of Darkness, unperceived, destitute of distinctive marks, unattainable by reasoning, unknowable, wholly immersed, as it were, in deep sleep.

6. Then the divine Self-existent (Svayambhu, himself) indiscernible, (but) making (all) this, the great elements and the rest, discernible, appeared with irresistible (creative) power, dispelling the darkness.

If it were the case that Gods never existed outside of humans then most Hindus,like most Buddhists,would not worship the gods they do,why burn incense to yourself,ask yourself for forgivness,ask yourself to become enlightened,ask yourself for good luck ? You wouldnt !

deity - any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force

The peace-loving deity of the Hindu Trinity, Vishnu is the Preserver or Sustainer of life with his steadfast principles of order, righteousness and truth. When these values are under threat, Vishnu emerges out of his transcendence to restore peace and order on earth. Vishnus earthly incarnations have 10 major avatars. The devout followers of Vishnu are called Vaishnavas, and his consort is Lakshmi. Vishnu is popularly worshipped as Lord Venkateshwara in the southern India

Melchizedek

Part 2

Hinduism has 5 principles ,of which the first is God Exists: One Absolute OM. One Trinity: Brahma, Vishnu, Maheshwara (Shiva) Several divine forms . Hinduism is not an atheistic religion,lol

One can say that Brahman Itself (Him/Herself) constitutes the essential building material of all reality, being the antecedent primeval ontological substance from whence all things proceed. There is no ex nihilo creation in Hinduism. Brahman does not create from nothing, but from the reality of Its own being. Thus Brahman is, in Aristotelian terms, both the Material Cause as well as the Efficient Cause of creation

As the source of Dharma, the metaphysical ordering principles inherent in the design of the cosmos, Brahman can be viewed as the Formal Cause. And as the final goal of all reality, Brahman is also the Final Cause. Being the ontological source of all reality, Brahman is the only substantial real that truly exists, all other metaphysical categories being either a) contingent transformations of Brahman, having their very being subsisting in attributive dependence upon Brahman, or else b) illusory in nature

These views about the nature of Brahman are in general keeping with the theological teachings of both the Advaita and the Vishishta-Advaita schools of Hinduism

The Bhagavad Gita, usually considered part of the sixth book of the Mahabharata (dating from about 400 or 300 B.C.), is a central text of Hinduism, a philosphical dialog between the god Krishna and the warrior Arjuna. This is one of the most popular and accessible of all Hindu scriptures, required reading for anyone interested in Hinduism. The Gita discusses selflessness, duty, devotion, and meditation, integrating many different threads of Hindu philosophy

The Upanishads are a continuation of the Vedic philosophy, and were written between 800 and 400 B.C. They elaborate on how the soul (Atman) can be united with the ultimate truth (Brahman) through contemplation and mediation, as well as the doctrine of Karma-- the cumulative effects of a persons' actions

The Institutes of Vishnu -This is also one of the law books of Hinduism. It contains several notable passages, including descriptions of yogic practises, and a moving hymn to the Goddess Prajapati.

Upanishads

5 Praised by Agirases, thou, foe-destroyer, hast, with the Dawn, Sun, rays, dispelled the darkness . Thou Indra, hast spread out the earth's high ridges, and firmly fixed the region under heaven

6 This is the deed most worthy of all honour, the fairest marvel of the Wonder-Worker, that, nigh where heaven bends down, he made four rivers flow full with waves that carry down sweet water

http://hinduism.about.com/od/godsgod...tp/deities.htm


The reasons for why Hindus have come to tolerate atheism inside hinduism is better described below

Dr. Radhakrishnan, ex-President of India and an eminent interpreter of Hinduism, as quoted in India: An Introduction by Khushwant Singh, New Delhi, 1990

"Hinduism is a name without any content... Its content, if any, has altered from age to age, from community to community. It meant one thing in the Vedic period, another in the Brahmanical, a third in the Buddhist,one to Saivite, another to Vaishnavite and Sakta

Frankly speaking, it is not possible to say definitely who is a Hindu and what is Hinduism. These questions have been considered again and again by eminent scholars, and so far no satisfactory answer has been given. Hinduism has within itself all types of religions such as theism, atheism, polytheism, Adwitism, Dwaitism, Saivism, Vaishnavism, and so forth. (emphasis added). It contains nature worship, ancestor worship, animal worship, idol worship, demon worship, symbol worship, self worship, and the highest god worship. Its conflicting philosophies will confound any ordinary person. From barbarious practices and dark superstitions, up to the most mystic rites and sublime philosophies, there is place for all gradations and varieties in Hinduism. Similarly, among the Hindu population are found half barbarian wild tribes, and depressed classes and untouchables, along with small numbers of cultured, gentle natures and highly evolved souls."

Worship -

a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object

b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

If we are all that the Gods are,and Gods are nothing more than a realization,then Hindus and Buddhists,Christians and Jews,as well as everyone else who is spiritual would not speak of others who created the world,speak of beings who ordered things to be how they are in the universe,people would not worship those beings,all they would have to do is look inside and nothing more. But When a shinto Buddhist lights candles and incense within a shrine,he or she does so through the belief that spirits dwell in nature, spirits that should be revered. Tibetan Buddhism is no different,there are several Gods in Tibetan Buddhism,but like Lao tze,and Confucious,Buddha realized that arguing about what Gods are or how Gods are was irrelevant,what is relevant is that you be a good person first,yet there a levels of realization to being "a good person"

But because the old sages knew one foot must follow the other symbolically speaking,they knew that when the time was right the initiate,after successfully building his/her spirit,would make grander realizations

In the kabbalah we find at the top of the sephirotic tree of life the name "ain soph aur",meaning the unknowable,but unknowable for a time only it is.And it is said that trials and tribulations must be gone through before a disciple is ready to move on to the next level and understand divine truths,talk with divine beings. It is the work of the initiate to know these mysterious beings