The An-Jel

I'm glad you didn't use Wiki SDS!

__________________
"And let there be Light!" said the Blind man.

Life is simple, people make it complicated - Basilisk

Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti - Royal Gibraltar Regiment

Melchizedek

I see what your trying to say,but re-read what I have written below,I never said wildebeest,or any other creature would not attempt to protect its young

Now lets examine what you have put forward

Hyenas do this why ? Because they have done so for many years,because its the order of things,the product of evolution,wildebeest are a reliable source of food for hyenas,reliable because wildebeest do not have the intelligence nor the selflessness to be able to protect their young in a way that will ever prevent hyenas from taking advantage,unlike humans,who have morals,which come from their sense of selflessness,the reason why other animals only have the most basic morals is because they are not selfless,and humans have laws which reflect their selflessness,and the intelligence and higher morality to catch a serial killer for example,who is basically picking off humans with as much disregard for their life as a cheetah has for wildebeest,only there is evil involved with the serial killer,not with the animal

They may attempt to outrun a predator if singled out,exactly because the adults of the herd will not in this instance run after the predator to protect the young wildebeest,and that is because they are driven by their own selfish motives

Naturally. And I did say initially that adult wildebeest would try and defend their young,but remember,they will only try,not die trying or risk a great injury!! So-this shows nothing,it only proves I am right in saying there is a line drawn,and once the adult realizes its own life may be lost or that it might recieve a serious injury that it will back off and allow nature to take its course,in other words that the predator eats the calf. Unlike humans,who would take a serious injury for their young,who would die

Yes its amazing,but does not refute what Im saying at all,its just another example of how intelligent other creatures can be. Penguins resist hunger because they are a bird which has evolved to store enough fat to be able to do so and they are bearing the brunt of polar blizzards because they live in that environment,they are designed to do that ! If they lived in the jungle and then travelled to the polar ice caps for 4 months to endure the most bitter cold then yes that would be an extraordinary display and I would see your point perhaps,but this is not evidence against selflessness in humans !

And all this attention given to wildebeest,lets go off course for a moment,what of those men in ww2 who threw themselves on top of grenades,or performed other acts which signed their own death warrant,so that they might die to save a bunch of other soldiers who may have been freinds,but were not relatives,not kin,they may not even have been freinds ? Do you think you can prove this was selfish behaviour ?

Melchizedek

I agree Astreja,in the forseeable future no,but in the future I believe yes,humans are evolved like other animals yet have another side to them,but its because of this animal nature we have that divine authority will not be imposed,because the gods are not great if they do not allow us free will. Treachery and deceit exists in high places,and amongst their neighbours ordinary folk quibble and fight over things which with a little more reasoning may be resolved peacefully .Yet the impulse to be selfish,and dominant and greedy is too strong amongst some people,who are not ready to forgive,to be selfless,to become true humanitarians

To the best of your ability you must look after your body and mind,and look after others as well as the other creatures here,but let me ask you something first,
if the state of the world presently is the measure of how well people know how to look after themselves and others and the creatures,how well do they do this ?

Yes fifty is older,but with any luck you will live much longer like the rest of your family,and we cannot be certain of drawing our next breath true,but how many treat their breath as though it may be their last and by doing so benifit from the wonderful sensation of being present in the now ?

It is true that when people believe they may be living their last day that something awakens within them,all of a sudden they are alive,more luminous,and more than thankful for what they have,the reason some of the poetry written by samurai has a rare clarity I believe,because they had to contemplate their own demise every day.And by doing so they developed extraordinary qualities which made them the noblemen they were. Many of the chivalric knights of europe were no different. Point being that these men were spiritual,their philosophy was spiritual,and it was in contemplating their own mortality that allowed them an exceptional insight into the reality of things,an insight which led them to behave selflessly,to seek selflessness . Samurai translated means "one who serves"

It is one thing to know how to serve,but another to serve well

How many continue on as they are these days,being selfish,complaining about what their life brings them,despite them having enough food,a house,furniture,running water,and all their limbs ? Many,yet ask them to sell one of their eyes and they will not,offer them 10 million for their tongue and they will refuse,yet they say they have nothing and are poor,they dont know they are rich beyond measure,that their worth is beyond measure

Seeking your happiness in the moment is the way to be,this is why zen buddhist monks speak of being here now,being aware,because by doing so we find enlightenment.You are right,better not to assume you will be alive for long,but to hope,in this way the samurai and zen monks forged the spiritual prowess required of an exceptional being

Out of every single living creature on earth,you have been given the best of everything according to what nature has planned for you,the human race,
your eyes are the most complicated on earth,no camera ever made can do what your eye can,you have the use of your thumbs,which has given you tools,writing,no other creature has developed art,or poetry or music,or is aware of itself like you are,your tongue is remarkable,it controls your destiny,why do you say you that human life is nothing special? where the wildebeast every year must travel across the plains to seek new grass,and water,but build no bridge over the river where the crocodiles lay,you have a brain and the intelligence and the thumbs to be able to save yourself, you are favoured over all other creatures,have a purpose,the music we create,the art,and the poetry we hear,the things we say to one another,and the love we show,how does it make you feel ?

Of course,but my example of someone you know being murdered was to show that the taking of life in a selfish world should be accepted as just part of our selfishness,since all other creatures will take another life to help further its own interests . For example a young lion wishes to take over a group of females,he must first deal with the older male who has possesed them for a time,but being younger,he overcomes the older male and takes possesion of the pride. But in doing so,its normal for the young one to kill all the offspring of the previous leader,so that he can start again with his own.

So as I said,if a robber enters a home and looks for someones riches,and he is disturbed in the process,and ends by killing the householder before running off,in what way will you blame him for the killing,seeing that he acts out of selfishness ? Are you going to blame him for being selfish ? He may have broken the law,but that does not make it morally wrong because the law says so does it ? If people say that eating meat is morally wrong does that make it wrong ?

There are many instances in the animal kingdom where a creature will kill another to take for itself the spoils. And even when there is no killing involved amongst the other creatures it amounts to the same selfish desire to succeed and control,to be dominant-no matter the cost,no matter the cost is my point Astreja .

Of course,it is valid,and my time here is short,so I enjoy your point of view because it makes me think

Melchizedek

Consider that some atheists say the Gods do not exist,that it is unreasonable to assume so,yet they are happy with the theory of evolution,fine with the idea that we are remarkable,that life is remarkable,but agree that life is a fluke. So if life is remarkable,but was also a fluke,then why is it unreasonable to admit that the gods may exist ? Why is it unreasonable to think that the Gods came about by fluke,that the gods just happened by accident.

Yes its remarkable but then so is human life ! That they evolved many many millions of light years ago,became supremely intelligent and powerful,became the makers of planets and creatures,and then created the world with us in their likeness ? By admitting human life is complex,and remarkable,and wonderful,but then saying Gods cannot exist,some atheists are admitting their own close mindedness,admitting that they are irrational

Og

There are many reasons why atheist say that gods don't exist or "this/that god" doesn't exist.. There are very specific reasons for specific deities. There are more generalized reasons for the entire concept of the supernatural.

You seem to be overgeneralizing. Particularly with the western god (i.e. christian/jew/mulsim yaweh/allah/etc) there are very solid reasons why the notion of their god is just utterly not in connection with anything other than illusions. There are other comments like how "supernatural is a null word" and has no meaning. Anything that is a thing or a concept or can be related at all to anything that exists is natural. That is all inclusive by definiton and does not have a "boundary" beyond which something can exist.

That you call human life remarkable is neat, but you clearly don't know the half of it.

There are many rational reasons that counter theistic arguments.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Melchizedek

Can you explain a few of these reasons ? Or is this just your opinion,just something you know is said but dont know why ?

And those reasons are what ?

Solid ? So what proof have you that the Gods are an nothing but a human illusion ? This should be interesting !

Haha, what do you mean, the half of what exactly ?

Of course there are,and thats because most arguments for God are nonsense,but-you have not yet given a rational explanation,or any evidence to support the claim that humans are nothing more than a selfish gene,borne in the beginning out of chaos

Og

You're clearly uneducated and uninterested in checking your facts (i.e. claiming no evidence for speciation/evolution etc).

I see no reason to try to deliver a clarification of my above statements given your attitude towards logic. I'll just let my claims stand as unsupported (in this thread) counters to your unsupported claims.

We is just a couple of mad men pissin in the wind methinks.

__________________
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

Melchizedek

My facts are checked,and are supported,if you done your research you would have noticed this,but instead you simply dislike that someone is disagreeing with your how you see things and have resorted to name calling and silly snide comments,yet you want us to see you as smart ?

And being really educated means you are a better person,a better citizen, as well as being able to use your brain,not an intellectual who is rude and unforgiving,and out of touch with their emotions,who thinks that all things can be understood via an education at university and that everyone else who has never been educated is stupid ! How ignorant to assume that

I am educated actually,but Im also happy,unlike yourself it seems.
Just I prefer not to rely only on my university education or pure logic to get by in life,because the intellect is NOT the only faculty we have which influences how we think,to make decisions with

How about just not delivering what you think ?
Bottom line seems to be you cant deliver a clarification because you dont have one

Your claims are not supported in this or any other thread,your claims are assumptions,theories that will expire within 100 years as people get smarter the way I and plenty of {educated} others see it

My claims are supported,haha,open your eyes

SDSJap

What of the bear who, shot 5 times, attacked the hunter to protect her cubs?

harleylove

Why? I think it's unreasonable to assume that Gods exist just because there are some things in life we don't understand

Can I ask what Gods you are referring to?

It's just as irrational and closeminded to say that Gods do exist. We could go in circles about this, I'm sure you are aware of that. So, how is it logical to believe in God. Other than you believing we have some purpose because we are more intelligent than other animals and you feel that we are selfless(I still disagree) and have some sort of spirit or soul, what other proof is there that we were created by Gods?

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If the day and night are such that you greet them with joy, and life emits a fragrance like flowers and sweet-scented herbs--that is your success. All nature is your congratulation.
Henry David Thoreau 1817-1862