duck

Words, words, words, and you are a master of them.

Books? We rely on a multitude of books.

It is always annoying when the new crop comes through, but I really don't understand what point this one is trying to make. What belief system would you argue for?

harleylove

Mel, being a parent myself, I have to disagree with your comment about parents dying for their children and that being a selfless act, I think it's a very selfish act if you really think about it.

Also, since we are addressing God. I will mention my feelings about Christianity since it is one of the major religions. I think Christianity is a very selfish religion, one based on reward and punishment. It limits people from doing the right thing because they feel it is the right thing not because their morals are based around God like you suggested. Do you know what I think would be truly selfless? If a Christian had some **** to stand up and say that God is not just. To say that their children, sisters, brothers, grandkids etc. are great, productive, loving people that shouldn't go to hell for being freethinkers. Personally I am tired of people just shrugging their shoulders and saying it's their choice. These are people they love and they are going to burn in hell and it's passed off with as much emotion as "Oh well, it's their problem". Where's the humanity in that? Selflessness would be taking a stand for the people you love and your fellow man even if that meant going to hell. Christianity IMO breeds selfishess with the optimum goal of course, heaven.

__________________
If the day and night are such that you greet them with joy, and life emits a fragrance like flowers and sweet-scented herbs--that is your success. All nature is your congratulation.
Henry David Thoreau 1817-1862

duck

I have always kicked around the idea of christianity being a religion of slavery.

I really wonder at times.

Gettin' In Tune

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

--Thomas Paine

Astreja

No, it would not make it "ok". It has nothing to do with being caught in the act. If the community opposes rape, the community sees it as wrong. If someone wants to be part of a community but acts contrary to the agreed rules, he won't last very long there.

I am a sentient entity made of matter and energy. And I do stuff that makes me happy. I will continue this process until the death of my physical body.

Words do exist, and they convey meaning to individuals and groups. While they're alive, that is. Once life is gone, so is the meaning.

"Humanity" does not exist except as a concept. It's a superset of smaller groups such as one's own family. There is nothing magical about "humanity".

Existence of "soul" - Not proven. We can imagine that we have such a thing, but imagining doesn't make it so. I consider myself part of the animal community, not some species "above" the animal world.

Melchizedek

Harley,you have to disagree,yet dont bother to explain why, I have explained why humans are not just selfish genes,if you disagree then explain the alternative motive for why any normal parent would die for their child,can you ?? Explain why I am wrong !

As I said,it would be far more selfish to allow the child to die,that would be real selfishness,because its more intelligent and selfish to preserve your own life,and just have another child !!! Can you not see that ?

Those philosophers who argue that we are complicated animals,but strictly animals nonetheless,who argue that love,art,poetry,music etc are nothing but the expressions of an animal which is highly intelligent,dont seem to understand the situation,those that say all these forms of expression are only the result of a higher intelligence,but that there is no divine soul inside humans,do not see the whole picture

Lets look at love as an example . If we are evolved monkeys,from a random and chaotic process,a big bang,and we are cleverer than other animals only because of a fluke,if we truly are more intelligent then surely that intelligence would make us see that when we lose the love of our life in a freak accident,or to an illness etc,that we can and should move on straight away,yet most people will not !

Some people have broken hearts,or fall into a depression,write songs about that person,or poetry,because we secretly recognize that every single human being is unique,and that this person has left us and cannot be replaced by another,yet if we were as intelligent as some say,we would not do that,the argument that we are complicated because of a random and chaotic event is stupidity !

If we are so intelligent,we should be able to move on straight away,knowing that there are millions of others who can take the place of our lost one,that the one we loved was only a biological process

yet it does not go that way for most people,unless they truly are selfish and indifferent to their emotions,hence the reason we live in a world of music,art and poetry which expresses the sorrow felt and the feeling of loss we go through

And If we are truly selfish,then many of the worlds famous painters and musicians would not have painted or made music,since they recieved no rewards,nor money,or recognition in their lifetime

They were motivated by the spirit,and had no need of the rewards thats why

The reason why despite its best efforts,modern psychology has not,and will not be able to fathom or heal those negative tendancies humans have is because until they accept and understand the nature of our divinity,our soul and spirit, we will live in a world of chaos,of murder and of rape,and of violent and terrible crimes,despite every effort to rehabilitate and heal the minds of people with severe mental problems,naturally sometimes people may be healed,but the healing of the world is a long way off,and exactly because the medicine,that is to say the philosophy,the understanding,is wrong

Allow me to draw your attention to what I have written regarding the christ and his teaching,there you will find what is missing from christianity,I absolutely agree that christianity as we know it has become selfish,dogmatic and preposterous,yet in there,in amongst the words of Jesus lays a message which is pure and unselfish

Christ is a greek word which means "the annointed" It is a mistake for christians to believe that only Jesus could be the christ,that only he could be annointed with the holy spirit and given the power to heal,perform miracles,that would be ridiculous since his message was that we are all the christ,that is to say we are all the christic principle which exists in the universe,Jesus was christ in the same way as we all may become the christ,we may all become as pure and unsullied as he,as selfless and caring,as bold and defiant against established religions which try to mislead the innocent,remember that when he went to the temple,Jesus made a whip of seven cords,to beat those money lenders and sellers of all that was unholy in the market place,a real christian resembles the spirit of "the christ" he or she may turn the other cheek,but he or she is unafraid of evil,unafraid of standing up against bullies and tyrants

My freind I am with you,and there is no hell,no eternal punishment,because the Gods forgive and love,only the church,and the mosque,and the synagogue has made you think differently,not the gods themselves,the gods admire strength,and the courage to question,its why they gave you a superior brain,and superior logic over other creatures,they dont need nor demand your prayers and petty devotion

I agree,and if God were such a tyrant as to send a soul to hell for all eternity because of a few sins in only one lifetime,I would be the first to say damn God,and I do,but the God of those pretending they are holy,when in fact they are nothing of the kind,but are petty,and egotistical,prudish and brutal in their judgements

Melchizedek

Haha,exactly my point Astreja,it is only wrong because the community says so,not because the Gods do,and as such no man has the right to say then that rape is morally wrong.Because it then rests on merely the opinions of one group over the other,of a group over an individual,yet morals are said to be personal in many instances

The best you can say is it is held as wrong by the community,that you believe it is wrong,that wont make it wrong to someone who thinks its right,it will just make it illegal !

And your right,a rapist would not last very long in a community where the residents all agree that its wrong,hence the reason why rapists often travel from town to town,from city to city,justifying what they do,because they do not know that they oppose the will of heaven

And this problem will stay with you all until divine authority rules,and your judges rule with it,and your citizens follow it. A potential nest of robbers and rapists and the vile shall be our inhabitions until then!

Glad to hear it,but be careful in how you tread,be careful that what you do does not help to cause you a disease,or an injury,or to be victimized or thrown in jail,because there are steps in life to be followed,disciplines which must be adhered to,everything in moderation,including those things which may harm your psyche
Yes they do exist,and are necessary,however,it is still too early for you to make a decision on what happens after life,live a little,grow old and see how you feel later,as you approach your death

Yet most of humanity especially children have a fixation with magic,with other worlds,with fairies and elfs and magical beings,with films and books involving magic - strange for such an intelligent creature dont you think ?

Then if one of your family,god forbid,are slaughtered by a self centered criminal after their riches,and who then takes off and is never caught,consider it normal,and do not complain,since to kill,and strive,and take amongst animals is normal

If you are married and someone better looking and richer comes along and flatters your beloved,and your beloved leaves you on the grounds that you just never had the money,the looks or social status,do not complain,for you have no right,as your beloved makes their decision based on their animal instinct

harleylove

I would die for my children in a heartbeat, wouldn't even have to think twice about it. I understand what you are saying but I still disagree. I would die for my children because I want them to live, I want them to experience life, I want them to stay on this wonderful planet and have a chance to accomplish their dreams. Mostly though, if one of my children died and I could have stopped it I may as well die myself because I would never be able to live with myself. What if one of our children would rather die themselves than see one of us die. Would we even take that into consideration, I know I wouldn't, I would do it anyway regardless of how they felt, assuming they would get over it. Can you understand where I am coming from?

I do but this is far more than selfish, it's cruel, cold and uncaring. Which I think you agree, we are not(well, most of us). Do you not think we can love and be selfish at the same time?

I just really don't get what you are trying to say here? What about accidents, brain damage, disease etc, that changes people's personalities, emotions etc.? The only thing I can make of this is that because we love and feel emotions that means we have souls.



I don't understand what you are saying here either. Are you saying that if we recognize souls and spirits people will stop killing, raping and committing crimes? How is that?



Very nice view on Jesus, very refreshing



I have a very hard time grasping the meaning of your post. I feel like you are talking in circles with love, souls, spirits, Jesus and Gods. Would you mind enlightening me and getting to the point. Thanks

__________________
If the day and night are such that you greet them with joy, and life emits a fragrance like flowers and sweet-scented herbs--that is your success. All nature is your congratulation.
Henry David Thoreau 1817-1862

duck

That would be nice. This latter day prophet seems to be speaking in tongues.

Gettin' In Tune

I am only replying to the ‘Topic of This Thread’ and not to the conversation. I do not like to use the words “strong” and “weak”, but I do not have better alternatives. “Strong” atheism is FAITH based and breeds (intellectual) arrogance for two reasons:

1. We do not know enough how the universe operates
2. We have not appropriately defined “god” and tested “god” in a scientific manner.
a. We are gaining a better definition of “god”
b. We also need the tools to test for “god’s” existence.


p.s. this is a tangent, so please resume meaningful conversation.

__________________
"But to find the truth we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact."--C.Sagan