Aaron

Sin is what man says god doesn't like.

I'm not ganging up on you Paul, but I must agree, none of it makes sense. As I see it, the foundation of modern Christianity was laid by man using a book that was written by man. Man just said it was the word of god.

A little more on what bothers me about Christianity/organized religeon:

By our nature, humans don't like uncertainty. Fear of the unknown drives us nuts. Religeon capitalizes on that fear by offering salvation in exchange for belief. The catch is that it isn't good enough to just believe and try to live a good moral life. Most religeons I am familliar with want to dictate what we believe and which morals we follow. We are also expected to offer money as proof of our faith. The funny part is that there is no garantee in the end. Hell, we might find a pissed off Zeus wanting to know why we quit believing in him.

Sorry, I rant. My point is that the church tries to manipulate our thoughts and actions in an opressive fashion when they know no better than anyone else. To what extent depends on the denomination

May I pry and ask your denomination Paul? I know it's not catholic by the simple fact that you're here asking the questions you are rather than telling us how evil we are. I'm guessing methodist or congrigationalist.

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Paul

lol no i'm not Catholic. I'm actually Southern Baptist. This denomination actually has a bad image. Many times we are labled as right wing fundamentalist that have no tolerance for anyone that does not believe the same way we do and that they are too closed-minded. And some Souther Baptists are like that. I believe that is wrong. I was taugt to think for myself and follow God's leading. And yes, there are some things that I believe that I will not compromise on, but every "religion" has points that they do not compromise on as well. Well maybe not all but you know what I mean.

It's amazing, because there are over 1500 baptist denominations alone. And we all claim to get our beliefs from the Bible yet we believe so many different things. And yes, many churches are very manipulative. That is very wrong.

No one knows what real Christianity looks like because you've got the kooks on TV that claim to be Christians, yet they completely distort it and have completley missed the concepts that Christ taught. Like that lady on that TV show "Trading Spouses". I don't know if anyone else saw it or not, but she was nuts. She yelling and calling people sinners and ranting on and on. She was horrible and not at all what the people in my church was like. So I can completely understand why people are turned off to Christianity.

What I want to do is show people how it has changed my life, and hopefully, people will see that not all people that claim to be Christian are like that. Like I said there are some things that I believe that I do not compromise that are very controversial. For instance, I believe that homosexuality and abortion are wrong. Some would call me a gay basher and a woman hater, but that is not at all true about me. While I believe that these practices are wrong, I would never be disrespectful or look down upon anyone that did those things. The God that I serve taught to love people. I will be honest with them, and make sure they understand how I feel and why I feel that way. After that, I have no problem having a wholesome relationship with them.

I may be narrowminded about salvation, but I think alot of people have a misinterpretation of what it is. Of course there are many many factors that affect what you believe about that as well as many other issues. Basically though, living a good life is not good enough, simply because we are not and can not be perfect. There are some things that we may see as sin that really is not. As you said, it is what we say that God does not like. I agree, but I decide what God does not like based on scripture. Of course this is dictated by what I believe about the Bible. and on and on it goes.

I guess my point is alot of people claiming Christianity as their faith or whatever, severly misrepresent what Christ taught.

milligal

Please answer me this, because no other christian will-this question is always avoided or side stepped:

Based on the teaching that mankind was created perfect in God's image and that the first sin led mankind into a sinful state thus bringing men into imperfection implies that God allows humankind to suffer as a result of this first sin:
the original sin-the eating of some fruit, the entirety of mankind was thrust into a sinful state and allowed to suffer because of being sinful and imperfect? Small babies who are diagnosed with cancer are allowed to suffer because two people we don't even remember in our history books ate some fruit they weren't supposed to?

How is this the depiction of an almighty god that should be worshipped? This teaching does not make sense to me.

Paul

Quote form Milligal

"Based on the teaching that mankind was created perfect in God's image and that the first sin led mankind into a sinful state thus bringing men into imperfection implies that God allows humankind to suffer as a result of this first sin:"

Yes that is right. Because of that first sin, we are doommed to imperfection. This is called imputation. Adam's sin-nature was imputed to us, or transferred. It is basically an inheritance that we have no control over. And yes, this causes much suffering in the world. It's hard to deal with children that suffer for no good reason. I completely understand that. I don't like it anymore than anyone else and I don't pretend to understand why God chose to do it that way. What gives me hope though, is that I can look forward to the day when there is no more suffering. What makes God worthy of worship is that he provided a way to escape the condemnation that we are all sentenced to. He gave Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Our sin was imputed to Christ, then Christ's righteousness was imputed to mankind. The only thing that we have to do is accept it. That is all that God requires of us. Will we still sin? Yes. Will we still suffer? Yes. Does it make life any easier? Well....not really. I like to think that it gives me alittle more strenghth and hope to go on when I don't want to, but it's not really any easier.

Evil causes suffering in the world, not God. Evil exists because good exists. You can't have one without the other.

And sorry, I could not figure out how to partial quote or multiquote. If someone could tell me where to find out how, that would be great. Thanks.

milligal

I appreciate that you answered my question directly. My thoughts are that if I had the power I would not let another minute go by, allowing the innocent to suffer. Could you sit back and watch suffering? Can you even stand to watch the commercials about starving children without wanting to turn the channel?

This teaching alone, desolves christianity's validity in my eyes. It is illogical that I as an imperfect human would have a greater sense of empathy than a perfect god. It is inconsistent to say that god allows us to suffer over some stolen fruit and that he'll allow us back if we make up to him by accepting Jesus-this makes god sound more like a spoiled child than a loving father.

Paul

I can't stand those commercials. I'd love to help out and sponser a child or whatever, but my wife and I are full time college students. I hate it. But evil does have a purpose. It the negative of God. This is a horrible horrible example, but it reminds me of The Matix movies. Everything has to be balanced. Satan/evil is the counter of God/good. Putting blame on God is the wrong side.

Aaron

[quote=Paul;10959]lol no i'm not Catholic. I'm actually Southern Baptist. This denomination actually has a bad image. Many times we are labled as right wing fundamentalist that have no tolerance for anyone that does not believe the same way we do and that they are too closed-minded. And some Souther Baptists are like that. I believe that is wrong. I was taugt to think for myself and follow God's leading. And yes, there are some things that I believe that I will not compromise on, but every "religion" has points that they do not compromise on as well. Well maybe not all but you know what I mean.

Yes, I am aware of how misleading the stereotypes can be. When I express my distaste for organized religeon, I tend to refer to the worst case examples of fanaticism and controll. I am aware that there plenty of open minded christians out there.

I used to be a member of a congregational church - a methodist denomination I believe. So I know what it is to be mislabled.

__________________
"The pump don't work cause' the vandals took the handle" - Bob Dylan

Paul

Yes it can be very upsetting. But, as we know, sterotypes exist for a reason most of the time. And I know that I will probably not make a difference in anyone here on these forums. I can only hope that the people I see on a day to day basis can see that my life has changed. I'm not the typical smug, I'm-better-than-you person who claims to be a Christian. Hopefully, I can make a difference in those people's lives.

jaej

This is how you quote a person:

-insert text after the first set of brackets, then put the second set in right after the end of the text.

To just write quote like this:

it looks like this:

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jaej

Shoot. When I just put the plain code with no text in between it doesn't show up.

Edit: Since I apparently can't show you just the code, just pm george and ask him.

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