Aaron

You won't ever understand everything - at least not in this life. At least you have an open minded view of things. I think that's the most important thing no matter what you choose to believe. Once you close your mind, personal growth stops.

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"The pump don't work cause' the vandals took the handle" - Bob Dylan

Paul

Exactly. There is a difference in being open-minded and pig headed (for lack of a better term). If someone said something that convinced me to change my belief about something, then great. Likewise, i'll do all I can to show others my beliefs and change their minds.

Anyways. I'm getting off work now and fixing to head home. Keep the ideas coming. It's all great stuff to think about. I probably won't be back on till Monday night sometime so everyone have a good weekend, and thanks for reading my first post.

Og

The prime problem with christianity is that the structure of the religion demands that the historical validity of the stories be central (i.e. the various creeds say this). It's imperative to believe that jesus was literally the son of yaweh born of a virgin and that he comitted miracles and that he rose from the dead and that adam and eve were literal people and that a snake actually tempted them and that eden is actually a place.

All of that is ridiculous. And treating these stories in terms of its denotation instead of its connotation is the problem with ALL western religion. It makes the religion into an idol worshiping experience that can not adapt to the world its in.

This is the problem we face today. Christianity is incapable of speaking in terms that connect with the populous because it still has stories in terms of sheep herders and public stonings and the lineage of david.

The cool thing is that the underlying archetypes of the christ story are universal to humanity and christianity is not the only place that they appear. There are many intellectually interpreted versions of the same elementary ideas as those expressed in the christ story. We should be focusing on those.

That god created the universe in 7 days is a direct reflection of the summerian cosmology of the 5 visible planets in the night sky and the sun and the moon as the 7 celestial objects. Even the god (elohim) of the first chapter of genesis is the name of a 7 god-head pantheon of the sumerians and things like the days of the week and the notes in an octive (7) relate to the spheres of the cosmos and the 7 wanderers.

The story of adam and eve is an alegory of the attainment of human consciousness and is expressed in a variety of ethnic forms (for example, in sanskrit, the story speaks of aham instead of adam amongst other crucial differences).

The notion that any of these stories are literally true is ridiculous. The gods we worship are expressions of powers within our own psyches. That's what it means when jesus says "I and the Father are one."

If bible studies taught our identity with god instead of our separation from him, I'd be much happier. If bible studies presented god as the thing that keeps us from knowing identity with christ and returning to the garden then I'd be much happier. But unfortunately, the structure of the religion is such that expressing your identity with god is the prime heresy. Jesus did it, and they crucified him and they do the same thing to this day.

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Vi veri veniversum vivus vici. (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)
The self is not a fixed entity but a dynamic process of relationships
You & I, no distinction. - Tat Tvam Asi
Become Who You Are

jaej

So says you. If god is omnipotent, why couldn't he make it so mindless robots were more pleasing to him? Why do we need to have free will to be pleasing to god? Answer: we don't, but that's the way the world is. We live with the illusion of free will, so you naturally consider it the best option since your perfect god made it that way. Why did he make it that way though, if his creations had the potential to rebel? And my other question, which you conviently ignored, is what prevents god from sinning?

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jaej

And no, you're not making me mad. The only person on here who's ever actually made me mad was faith.

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Paul

I don't think that we need to have free will. I think it is a priviledge that was given to us. And yes, he could have made mindless robots that were pleasing to him if he wanted to. God chose to create us this way because he wanted us to desire to worship and love him. A robot does what you tell it to. There is no real emotion. It simply does what you tell it without any thought of consequence. Man has been given the choice to do as we please. We can choose to follow God, or we can choose not to. The ability to sin or rebel comes with that. They go hand in hand.

Ok yes I forgot to answer the question of God sinning.

God, by definition, is the only being worthy to be worshipped. If God sinned, then he would then not be worthy of being worshipped, therefore, he would cease to be God. This is not possible because God is eternal. He has no beginning and no end so he cannot cease to be God.

Let me know if that makes sense or not.

Aaron

Let's all get a big bowl of popcorn an watch "Dogma". I love Kevin Smith's take on religeon in this movie and it lends itself well to this conversation.

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"The pump don't work cause' the vandals took the handle" - Bob Dylan

jaej

So god is incapable of sin? How? How is the creator of the universe restrained by anything? Couldn't he change what sin was? I'm sorry, but the answer you gave is totally unsatisfying. Again, how can god be restricted by anything? Sin is only what god doesn't like. Nothing more.

Yes. A HUGE bowl.

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Gladius Scutum

Not trying to sound like an ass Paul, but I recently lost my faith in God, and a big hand in that was seeing too many dead children on the job. I work in EMS, and every time I came across a patient that lost their life before they even had a concept of faith really put a dent in mine. That's what really makes me not want to desire and worship him.

You remind me of the preacher I had growing up, he was a good man and taught tolerance, and I still have every bit of respect for him now. You sound a lot like him.

Paul

Sin is more than just what God does not like. It is the complete opposite of God. This boils down to the question of whether God is subject to something higher than himself? Basically, is right and wrong what it is because God said so, or does God simply choose to do or be that which is already good or right? If that is what you are asking, then I'm not sure yet. I've not studied it enough to come up with a logical answer.

I have not seen Dogma yet, but I do want to.

Gladius, I can totally see your point of view and being upset that children die before they get to experience any kind of life. That is an issue that I struggle with as well. At the moment, I believe that children who do not yet understand the concept of sin and faith and salvation and all that are considered safe. Meaning, God understands that they have not reached what some like to call "the age of accountability." This is not really taught in scripture that I have found yet, except for in Psalms (not sure of the reference) where King David's child has died, and David says that his son can not come to him, but he can go to his son. Not that any of this make it any easier to deal with children dying, but it does give me hope that God understands and is just and righteous to not hold something like understanding against a child. Good luck to you. And thank you for the work you do.