Paul

Thank you very much. I appretiate the compliment. I enjoy reading your posts as well.

Let me point something out though.

I could not agree more. Each person has the (if I may) God-given right and privledge to believe and practice whatever kind of religion, lifestyle, freedoms or whatever they wish to pursue. Whether they be right or wrong, we all have that ability especially in this country as it should be like it was founded. That is what I say is our free will, freedom of choice, however limited they may be.

So you want to accept things as you want to and believe things in your own way, but you don't like it when "church groups" interpret spiritual matters "in their own way".

Now please don't be angry, because I am not trying to pick a fight at all. I simply want you to see the one-sidedness of this view. Now maybe I am interpreting what you said wrongly. If so please let me know and I will gladly apologize because I do not want to misrepresent your view. I can completely understand you being irritated, upset, or aggrevated or whatever with those that try to "force" their beliefs on you. I am the same way. I'm not sure how old you are (you seem to be very mature), but I am an adult (a mere 22 years old) and frankly I don't like to be told what to do either. I can sympathize with that, but please remember others should be allowed the same freedom that you (general you) have.

Hopefully you do not feel I am trying to force my beliefs on you (and I do not think you do feel that way), because we both know that you could just as easily not read my posts. I have no way to force you to do that. And anyone trying to do that to you out on the streets or whatever, just knock them out and walk away. I would do the same if they were that persistent. Just remember that they have the same right you do to believe as they want to. And I know that a lot of "christians" would not agree with me, because they think that you have to believe what they believe or you are going to hell. And I agree. I think that if you have not accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, then yes, you are going to hell, but there is absolutly no way I can force you to do that. It is your decision between you and God. You may disagree with my view of salvation, and that is ok, I can believe what I want to believe and you should not get mad about it. But those that get mad at you are retarded. We as true Christians are commanded to love others, share our testimony, and let God do the rest.

Please let me say this to everyone who reads this post and that it applies to. I am sorry for those of you that have been jaded by churches or individuals that have claimed to be Christian. It is not my place to judge if they were Christian or not. But there have been many times in these forums that I have read accounts that absolutly do not follow with what Christ taught. If a "Christian" has been mean, forcefull, or unloving to you or someone you know, I apologize, because that kind of attitude is not keeping with the principles and practices that Christ taught. Again, for that I am sorry.

marmalade

If you actually believed you couldn't have an effect on others, then I doubt you would be here posting. Maybe you think of it as the Holy Spirit working through you, but from the outside it looks the same.

To be honest, I suspect that literalist religion may be the most dangerous thing that humanity has ever faced. A single person holding literalist beliefs is only minimally troubling, but large groups of literalist believers is something that shouldn't be accepted as merely a personal choice. The children(your children) raised in literalist religious families don't have a choice. By the way, literalism applies to non-religious belief systems also. For instance, the Nazis were a literalist political group. Anything that is taken as absolute truth without question is literalist. We should defend against literalism where ever we find it whether in religion or politics.

How can it give you hope, meaning, happiness and wholeness when the majority of the world's population disagrees with your beliefs and is excluded from the saving power that you and the other elite souls have been graced with? I'm assuming you believe that those who don't accept Christ are going to Hell, right? If so, how could you ever enjoy heaven knowing the vast majority of mankind is suffering eternal torment in hell?

As an agnostic, I don't believe in God. But this doesn't mean that I haven't had many experiences that could easily be interpreted as God, and I do sometimes interpret them that way. I'm agnostic because I leave it open-ended and don't assume that I know the absolute truth of what is beyond me. Sometimes thinking in terms of God is useful, and sometimes it isn't. To me, God is an experience and not a belief, not a religion, not an anthropomorphic deity. The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao.

As I don't believe in or dis-believe in God, I try to assume as little as possible. I don't assume anything about God. I don't assume he is Christian. I don't assume he is going to save me and I definitely don't assume he is going to send others to hell.

If God exists, he exists now. My perspective is more in line with Eastern Mysticism. It really doesn't matter what happens when I die. If God saves, he doesn't save me when I die... rather, he saves me now or never. If God saves me, then he saves everyone. Certainly, having the right belief or calling God by the right name isn't going to save me. If God exists, then he either laughs or cries(metaphorically speaking) when he witnesses the pettiness and errors of religious thinking. Who are we humans to tell God what beliefs or rituals, what religion or holy text he should conform himself to?

Its true that agnostics don't believe in God, but this doesn't mean that Agnostics don't experience God. Its my experience that beliefs get in the way of experience. Jung said something like, "I don't believe in God, I know God." He meant that he had profound experiences that transcended his individual sense of self. This is what I mean by the label of Agnostic Gnostic that I sometimes use in reference to myself.

You are a bit confused here. You seem to be assuming your notion of God is the only one. There are many notions of God within monotheism, and there are even more notions of God in other religions.

To believe in a literalist God is a kind of hell from my viewpoint. So, you believe I might end up in hell, and I think you might already be in it. To me, hell is to be deluded, to see unclearly, to cling to one's beliefs out of desire and fear. Once again, this is a more Eastern perspective or even Gnostic. To some Eastern and Gnostic views, this world is hell or there is something about our mind-sets that causes us to experience this world as hell. Anyways, hell is here and now... possibly within us.

What you lost is all of your life before you died.

From a Buddhist perspective, we suffer blindly and cause suffering onto others blindly. Until we awaken to this fact, we are not truly living up to the potential good that exists within us. So, if you die having lived your whole life under limited beliefs, then you lost a whole lot.Not to mention, according to Eastern views, you'll be reincarnated back into the same blind suffering all over again and the next time might be worse than the previous life.

If atheists are correct, then you lost the opportunity to live freely in this world... free that is from the constant fear and consternation that God is looking over your shoulder judging whether you're worthy or whether you're going to hell.

Considering that your belief is only one amongst likely billions of other beliefs, it seems the probability of you being right is fairly minute. I'd say you've already lost quite a bit just by holding such a demented belief. To tell others that they are going or probably going to hell signifies that you've already lost some of your soul. What kind of demon-god have you sold your soul to?

By the way, I don't feel its an exaggeration to call him a demon-god if he sends people to hell... most definitely he isn't any compassionate being such as the Buddha. You can speak nicely without arguing, but the implied meanings behind these kinds of beliefs aren't very nice.

It seems to me that my "faith" is much more safe than yours. My faith can include the wisdom and insight of all religions while not remaining limited to potentially false beliefs. My faith is based on my direct experience. I trust my own experience more than I trust what other tell me to believe. In fact, I trust my own experience more than I trust even my own beliefs. Beliefs are never safe because beliefs get in the way of seeing clearly that which is truly safe.

My life lacks neither meaning nor purpose. I'm probably too obsessed with meaning and pupose.

Because I don't wish to sell my soul to such a horrible being even if it buys my way into some elite heaven. Just because the Judeo-Christian God is a false god(according to the Gnostics for instance) it doesn't mean that beyond him there isn't a higher principle that is true. Even if there isn't a higher principle, I still see no advantage in believing such a horrible being.

Not if he doesn't catch me. If there is an afterlife, I'm so hoping that his heaven and hell aren't the only choices. As a Jew who had been in a Nazi death camp once said, "When they give you two choices, always take the third." If I truly believed he was all there was, then I'd kill myself right now even if it meant hell.

No, your kind of happiness, hope, and meaning isn't what I'm seeking. Yours is of an exclusive variety. What happiness, hope, and meaning can there be if it excludes the vast majority of souls in the world?

duck

Paul, I don't care if church groups follow whatever word they want. I'm just not interested in sharing.

Oh, and yes, I am much, much older than you. A bit more than twice your age. Once again, of all the Christians that post on this forum, I appreciate your views and commentary the most since you have such a healthy respect for others and that pragmatic approach that you have.

__________________
Religion: The ultimate definition of verisimilitude

Derbonic

This is Pascals Wager. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
one look at this and you will understand if I dont want to enter this discussion here in this particular thread.
well... ok.... briefly: Believing out of either desire for reward (heaven) or fear of punishment (hell) is corrupt in my opinioin.

The Mystery! The sense of virtue I feel from being as honest with myself as I can. If you can embrace your skepticism and accept ignorance you will find that NOT feeling you have all the answers is awesome.

Thank you for being so polite. Its way refreshing.

__________________
You can do it your own way, long as its done just how I say.~the hypocrit

marmalade

"If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.
But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty."

~ Rabi'a

Paul

Well let me say that I understand that when I post here, I expect that it is not going to make any difference to anyone else (aside from maybe giving someone a laugh of two). Now of course, I hope I do. I hope that someone would read one of my posts and it would make them think about it or maybe they would see something that they've never thought about, but I understand that it probably will not happen. My posting and participating in these forums is mainly for my own benifit. I like to learn about other points of view and enjoy talking about these kinds of things. I'm 22 years old. Most people my age are not mature enough to even think about stuff like this sometimes. A few are, but I don't really have time to search them out cause I go to school full time and work full time. This is the easiest thing for me to do when it comes to this.

Please explain to me what you mean by "literalist" beliefs. I'm unfamiliar with that term. And I think it is a bit of a streach comparing Christianity to Nazis. They are two completely different mindsets (or at least should be). I'm not sure where you are going with that.

It does not matter if the rest of the world agrees with me or not. I would love it if all were to come to the faith and knowledge of Christ, but I know that is not gonna happen. I can still enjoy Heaven because it is God that I want to please. Of course it saddens me to think of the ones that have passed away and will pass away that may have not gone to Heaven. It is heartbreaking. But there is simply nothing I can do about that. It hurts, but God is my comfort and I lean on him for strength to deal with that.

I'm sorry but that just does not make sense to me. An experience is simply an experience. Now I guess you could argue that people say they experience God, but I would say they experience the power or the presence of God or something like that.

How does that work?

I don't know anything about Eastern Mysticism. If you are refferring to the suppossed differences in thought between the east and the west (the east being a both/and society as oppossed to the west being more of an either/or society) then I think the argument is flawed, because even in India or China or wherever a person would look both ways before crossing the street, because "either" a person is going to make it across "or" he is going to get hit by the bus. Those schools of thought definatly apply to different things, but they are both present in all cultures. It cannot always be either/or and it cannot always be both/and. If you are not refferring to that, then I appologize and please explain what you mean.

I understand that many people have experiences that transcend theirselves, but why refer to it as God if they do not believe in him. Again is seems like a contridadiction to me. And no offence, but "Agnostic Gnostic" is definatly an oxymoron. It just seems to add to the inconsistensies.

No I completely understand that. But there is no way to work through every single one of them quickly. Definatly not confussed about that.

Well can't argue with that. If that is what you believe then ok.

Again most of it just does not seem logical to me.

Granted, there are alot of beliefs out there so not everyone can be right. IT can't be "both/and" lol.
As far as God being a demon-god, our views of God are vastly different. It is nice because we emphasize love and forgiveness. Yes there is punishment for sin, but there is an easy way out.

I'm getting ready to go home for the night so I'll get the rest next week maybe.

marmalade

I'm curious what you're looking to learn about. If you aren't looking with the idea that you might change your mind about your beliefs, then why look? If you don't think agnosticism is true or potentially true, then are you merely trying to understand our view better so that you have a better sense why we're wrong? For instance, I couldn't imagine posting on a Christian forum(not one that was literalist leaning). Or is there a part of you that wonders if there might be some truth and validity to agnosticism? Or do you simply find it interesting?

If you assume your beliefs correspond to ultimate reality, then I'd hope it would matter that others don't share these beliefs. Why isn't this ultimate reality as obvious to the majority of the rest of the world? What special insight do you have that the majority of the rest of the world lacks? How can others gain this insight?

To tell you the truth, I don't even understand this truth that you've claimed to found or how I'd seek it out. Reading the Bible or going to church doesn't a Christian make.

There is this idea in Buddhism that a person interested in the Buddhist path can test it for themselves. Buddhism makes certain claims about meditation. You don't need to believe in a holy text or even read one. If you want to know if meditation works, then you meditate. However, Buddhists don't claim that meditating proves Buddha's existence. Even though most Buddhists assume that Buddha was historical, they don't see it as centrally important. What is important is whether meditation accomplishes what it does and there are other religions that use this method.

Similarly, religions other than Christianity use prayer. Praying to God even when God answers doesn't prove Christianity.

Satan and Hell both were created by this God that your so fond of. It should sadden you. By worshipping this God you are weighted down by the guilt of the torment that has been brought upon by those he has sent to Hell. It is truly perverse to find enjoyment and comfort in this scenario. This God is a tyrant and a genocidal psychopath(going by the descriptions in the Old Testament).

I really don't say these things likely. This is exactly what I'd think of a person who did crimes as horrendous as these. God has to prove he is worthy. I do believe in the possibility of a worthy God, but the god of the Bible doesn't fit my standards of goodness.

Its saddening and heartbreaking to me that anyone believes in this god. Its also saddening and heartbreaking that I'm going to Hell. Or if Hell doesn't actualy exist, its saddening and heartbreaking that people wish to believe I'm going to Hell. Its like talking to someone who is mentally undressing you, but instead they're mentally sending me to hell.

I realize you believe your God is good. Do you dismiss the God of the Old Testament as not being the same as the Christian God? Is your sense of God more based on Paul's ideas of love?

Well, everything is experience. When you read the Bible, you are having an experience. Ultimately, there can be no separation between God and the experience of the power or the presence of God. I'm speaking from an Eastern perspective about perception creating the appearance of separation. God is everything and everything is God. Everything came from God... Alpha and Omega and all of that.

If you believe that the Creator is separate from his creation, then you believe in a dualistic cosmology. And, technically, dualism isn't monotheism. Then again, monotheism as understood by most people is a very imprecise term that can translate into a wide variety of beliefs.

See description of experiencing God above. By the way, neither believing nor dis-believing in God is the most basic definition of agnosticism.

I'm not referring to that. I was simply speaking about the God as spiritual experience thing as opposed to God as religious belief.

Because some people don't define God by belief in the first place.

What specifically seems like a contradiction?

This link will give you some understanding of what I mean:
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...ticgnostic.htm

I'm glad you realize the complexity of the matter. If you're interested, I'd recommend that you someday explore some scholars like Karen Armstrong.

I'm sure you could argue with it, but you're apparently a conflict-avoidant type. Personally, I'd prefer some straightforward discussion because it isn't just ok. I'm not an absolute relativist, and as far as I can tell neither are you. Beliefs have real effect in the world.

I realize you have a busy life, but if you have the time I'd appreciate a more detailed response. What doesn't seem logical?

Somethings are either/or, but somethings are most definitely both/and. The extreme emphasis of either/or is an aspect of literalist thinking.

I like to find commonalities, but I'm often for finding the differences first. That way, it clarifies the commonalities. I strongly dislike the superficial pc idealization of commonalities. I don't take disagreements personally unless someone else makes it personal. I prefer people that are honest with me even if their honesty is disagreement. Plus, throw in some sincerity and humility, and some genuine insight is always nice.

marmalade

Its related to fundamentalism.

literal/allegorical, historical/mythicist, exoteric/esoteric, ritualistic/mystical, religious/spiritual, belief/experience

http://home.ca.inter.net/~oblio/BkrvTJM.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_literalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...matical_method

These next two links were interesting. According to these polls, a majority of Americans believe in the literal interpretation of certain Biblical stories. Polls aren't always the most accurate form of data, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was fairly accurate.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?P...UpdateID =282

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?P...naUpdateID=280

This next link is a good summary.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH102.html

I wasn't comparing them. I used the example of the Nazis because its a very extreme manifestation of literalist thinking. I realize that most Christians, like most Germans, aren't this extreme. Nonetheless, the Catholic church in the past was a more extreme example than even the Nazis.

Here is a review of Tom Harpur's book The Pagan Christ. Tom Harpur is a Christian writer who believed in the literal historical nature of Jesus until he studied some books on the mythicist argument. His book isn't the best explanation of mythicism, but its a good intro especially for Christians since he considers himself Christian. He writes a fair amount about the problems of literalism.

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/BkrvHarpur.htm

hell_raiser195

One thing that bugs me about Christians is their reply to any questions they dont know the answer to, which is usually "God works in mysterious ways", it helps know one and shows that they dont funny understand what they believe.

I used to be a Christian when I was a child (until i was 12), I asked the vicar why there are statues in church when the bible clearly states that it is wrong to have graven images...i was ignored...

I know many people will hate me for saying this, but what concerns me about Christianity and the way the Church works is how similar it is to a dictatorship. The Church is very good at silencing what it sees as a threat and covering up anything incriminating. The Vatican itself is a centre of debortuary, many of its members are sex offenders and child molesters.

"I am not a facist, I am a priest, facists dress in black and tell people what to do"....

raylucks

Hi to you!!
OK" Let me give it straight. No fancy Pshycological talk here that many like to engage in to for what ever reasons.
Instead"? This comes straight out of the Box.
Why should anyone scorne or hate you for your views? Unless it is not in line with what their believe system is and end up getting a little ruffled by it all.
So what if it is not to others Ears? Who cares? Some feel the need to believe in something inventive and some don't.
Well" Let me put my two Dollars worth in, Just for the Heck of it all.
I think there are many People just like me; And just like yourself with their own thoughts as to what is and is just not acceptable to their own believes.
So it is" And that is ok.
Well? Here is mine for what it is worth.
I think too many People get cought up trying to coerce or convince one another in one way shape or form that their own believe is the correct one.
Sure" There are furtunately People who leave other People alone in believing their own thing. That is the way it should be.
I say to People in general.
Consider this......
I dare say that every Human on this Planet must have a common believe (unless the odd one out) in a content of a higher power of some sort in having created all that is.
It is an undeniable and pure fact within itself.
I say: Embrace this fact.
Let me simplify this:
Put a Bottle of Orange on a Table. We all believe in the content and know that it is Orange. We even tasted it ok?
Various Denominations, Religions, Cults, Faiths and so on place their own LABEL on the Botttle with their own lovely Picture that is acceptable to their own believe system as to where the content came from.
It's No Rocket Science.
Then we have the word FAITH"
The word Faith does not imply proof of any sort and is just that; Faith"
This is what all the various Denominations believe systems are based on.
Again" The pure FACT is>>> We are not meant to know what realy has created all there is? We may NEVER know!
Because all the various denominations are based on faith is the exact reason why it is just that. FAITH" No more and no less.

Now" Consider this; If we knew all there is to know.
There would be nothing to wonder about, nothing to find mysterious, nothing to intrigue us. Boy! Hope i spelled that right.
So" I like you to consider all the above and perhaps see it for what it realy is?
For the ones that need a God of some sort to shoulder their life and comfort level on and it works for you. So be it. I won't keep you from it.
My believes reflect what i have explained already.
I believe that something has made all there is. Some sort of ultimate higher power or what ever it is that has created ME
I will not try to work out who or what created Me? Because i can't! Non of us Human can or we would not be on this page asking all these questions and believing that faith is enough for many.
Instead" I accept that i am here. I accept that i am here for a purpose. What purpose? I accept that i don't know. I accept that i have nothing to be afraid of. I accept that i will die and i don't know what happens after death.
I accept that Men kind sets conditions, FEAR and the like ( especialy on the younger People who are very impressionable) an on to People who do not share their believes.
I accept that a Creator does NOT set conditions for our existence and our lives. It is We and only We who through our Culture conditioning have set conditions on ourselfs along with our own values, in the way we live live. Either be good or not so good.
One thing